Emma Bontrager Tributes

Originally Posted by RD Cox

Therefore, Rumspringa facilitates and thus indorses sin as a rule, it allows for it and thus invites, and it is the norm for Amish youth of that age, not the exception. No, not everyone becomes a meth head, I already covered that, but sin is sin. Rumspringa is a free gift of indulgences on a trial basis.

Well spoken. I have the documentary on DVD. I was very surprised that the Amish would allow such a time for their children. Whether they jump into the world as seen in the documentary or do something of a lessor nature that is yet wrong, it is as if the wrongdoing is endorsed by the group. I cannot fathom allowing young kids to partake in this. Giving them space to decide if they want to join the Amish community is one thing, deliberately giving them an okay to do things they have taught against is totally another. To me, it's mind boggling.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by Sarge

Well spoken. I have the documentary on DVD. I was very surprised that the Amish would allow such a time for their children. Whether they jump into the world as seen in the documentary or do something of a lessor nature that is yet wrong, it is as if the wrongdoing is endorsed by the group. I cannot fathom allowing young kids to partake in this. Giving them space to decide if they want to join the Amish community is one thing, deliberately giving them an okay to do things they have taught against is totally another. To me, it's mind boggling.

Sarge, I can agree with what you say here as it seems a litlte more balanced than what RD Cox is saying. My view of rumspringa (which means running around) is that as a tradition it is not biblical and it is quite loose. However, RD Cox names a few "contacts" that he has with the Amish as his basis for his opinion. On the flipside, Steve Hoover is obviously the real expert here, having been raised in it himself. I personally am drawing on my extensive study of the Amish. Yes, I have also seen rumspringa pictures on the web as well as on Devil's Playground complete with beer parties and tales of abortion. Yes, it happens. But there is a difference between it happening and it being shown as the norm and sensationalized. A person making a documentary could easily go into the UPC and choose a few churches that are extreme and tell tales of sexual escapades amongst the ministry and people being rebuked publically and all that. They could then cite the legalism about uncut hair and dresses etc. and make the UPC look like a huge cult. I think there is a difference between a Jim Jones cult and the UPC. The UPC has cultic tendencies and has quite a bit of legalism in it. I think these things also facilitate the scandals and make them worse with cover-ups etc. However, to make it appear that ALL the UPC is that way is a different thing. These things do happen among the Amish youth. I personally think it is a shame. However, I also believe that there are Amish youth that do not go hog wild. What Steven Hoover said about the 3 types is basically about how I see it. From what I understand, the Amish in Lancaster County PA have the most trouble with rumspringa because there are SO many Amish there and so many types of churches etc. Many parents are concerned with this so one of the solutions is to move to an area where rumspringa is not so open. Another issue in the rumspringa/courting stage is bed courtship. Not all districts practice this. (The boy and girl lay in bed, supposedly clothed and alone at night.) This is a controversial issue and from what I remember, is MORE likely to be practiced by the Swartzentruber Amish (but is also practiced by some of the Old Orders) which is even more conservative than the Old Order group. The reason for this is that they are least likely to break with the tradition. Steve can feel to correct me.

[Hoovie]

RD, I find your exposure to the plain people as interesting yet uninformed in some ways.

In your posts you indicate Rumspringa is terrible thing - an endorsement of sin and something sanctioned by the parents of youth.

Herein lies your misunderstanding. Rumspringa is a wonderful and celebrated time in a young persons life. The word is literally translated "around running" or "running around" and the actual meaning is "running around with the youth group".

It is not a bad thing in any sense of the word and all Amish and plain people experience this. It is a coming of age - a time when parents know there hold on the young adults is minimal and the church has absolutely no power over them because they are yet to become members. A time when a relationship with God and the church is desired by the elders for their children, but they know it is a matter of the heart, and a decision that cannot be imposed.

Again, there are those who indulge in sinful activities during this time but I know of no sanctioning of drunkeness, drugs, or immorality. The church actively preaches against these things, but their reach of enforcement is obviously only to the membership and not beyond.

I realize media is at least partially responsible for the misconception.

Steve Hoover

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by RD Cox

BTW Stephen, did you by chance view the 20/20 expose involving the Amish. That made me sicker.

Oh yes, very sickening indeed - just like hundreds of news stories of scandal of those who attend a Baptist or Pentecostal church.

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by Sarge

Well spoken. I have the documentary on DVD. I was very surprised that the Amish would allow such a time for their children. Whether they jump into the world as seen in the documentary or do something of a lessor nature that is yet wrong, it is as if the wrongdoing is endorsed by the group. I cannot fathom allowing young kids to partake in this. Giving them space to decide if they want to join the Amish community is one thing, deliberately giving them an okay to do things they have taught against is totally another. To me, it's mind boggling.

I understand your wonder at this seeing you too misunderstand the concept. The "coming of age" is not so much something that is granted by the parents or the church. It is simply something that occurs naturally in all cultures and religions. There are some that do abuse their newfound liberties - and sometimes parents do turn a blind eye because their dwindling authority has no real teeth to make enforcement otherwise.

The Amish sanction no sinful living and no breaking of the rules of the church - in fact quite the opposite is true - they enforce their rules on threat of excommunication and expulsion from closed church communion. The church has no real authority over those who are expelled or have yet to become Amish. There is an in-house debate concerning the tolerance of the parents when youth go wayward. Many will not expell a child from the home if they get a car or endulge in even sinful activities. If they do, it often seems to drive the youth even further from the church and lesson the likelyhood of them becoming compliant members in the future.

The Devils Playground is a documentary in the style of Micheal Moore.

For actual balance one should see the award winning PBS documentary, "The Amish: A People of Preservation".

[RandyWayne]

Originally Posted by RD Cox

BTW Stephen, did you by chance view the 20/20 expose involving the Amish. That made me sicker.

Was this the story about the young lady who was molested by several 'yutes' repeatedly while growing up?
We watched that ourselves and about half way through, saw a road sign while the she was being filmed driving and said "what the.....". It was a road a few miles from our house. This particular community is in our own county.

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by RandyWayne

Was this the story about the young lady who was molested by several 'yutes' repeatedly while growing up?
We watched that ourselves and about half way through, saw a road sign while the she was being filmed driving and said "what the.....". It was a road a few miles from our house. This particular community is in our own county.

That would be the one.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover

I understand your wonder at this seeing you too misunderstand the concept. The "coming of age" is not so much something that is granted by the parents or the church. It is simply something that occurs naturally in all cultures and religions. There are some that do abuse their newfound liberties - and sometimes parents do turn a blind eye because their dwindling authority has no real teeth to make enforcement otherwise.

The Amish sanction no sinful living and no breaking of the rules of the church - in fact quite the opposite is true - they enforce their rules on threat of excommunication and expulsion from closed church communion. The church has no real authority over those who are expelled or have yet to become Amish. There is an in-house debate concerning the tolerance of the parents when youth go wayward. Many will not expell a child from the home if they get a car or endulge in even sinful activities. If they do, it often seems to drive the youth even further from the church and lesson the likelyhood of them becoming compliant members in the future.

The Devils Playground is a documentary in the style of Micheal Moore.

For actual balance one should see the award winning PBS documentary, "The Amish: A People of Preservation".

I guess what I read Sarge to be saying is that it is mind boggling....the practice of rumspringa itself. Yes, there is in-house debate...which is why some people end up moving to a different district to try and keep their young from straying too far. The truth is that, although I do agree that the Amish church is not by any means sanctioning the activities of sin during rumspringa, it is a tradition that "English" people would find mind boggling in that a coming of age in the English culture is generally one that is supposed to be balanced by responsibility....not just a cutting loose when one turns 16 and the parents and church saying "We are not responsible". It really is granted by the Amish parents and church by default in the tradition because the kids know that at 16 the church and parents will allow this. So, it is mind boggling to some extent that the Amish church practices this as a tradition. A mere coming of age is not the same thing.

Originally Posted by ILG

I guess what I read Sarge to be saying is that it is mind boggling....the practice of rumspringa itself. Yes, there is in-house debate...which is why some people end up moving to a different district to try and keep their young from straying too far. The truth is that, although I do agree that the Amish church is not by any means sanctioning the activities of sin during rumspringa, it is a tradition that "English" people would find mind boggling in that a coming of age in the English culture is generally one that is supposed to be balanced by responsibility....not just a cutting loose when one turns 16 and the parents and church saying "We are not responsible". It really is granted by the Amish parents and church by default in the tradition because the kids know that at 16 the church and parents will allow this. So, it is mind boggling to some extent that the Amish church practices this as a tradition. A mere coming of age is not the same thing.

Thank you, ILG. That would be correct. While the church may have no hold on them, the parents surely do and as so many of us heard while growing up, "as long as you live in my house....," the parents can make a definite stand against any sinful behavior. If they do not, to me it would be the same as condoning it. And to do such is mind boggling, indeed.

[Hoovie]

The extent of the tolerance would vary from district to district and family to family I am sure...

But from my own experience as an Old Order Mennonite and a limited exposure to the Amish, I would say this tolerance is still less than that of society at large and even that of many parents I know in Pentecostal churches. I know parents who "allow" teenagers to drop out of school and lay around watching TV without a job or responsibility.

Sarge and ILG, Do you think a teen should be kicked out of his parents home if he starts smoking cigarettes or has had sex with his girlfriend? Even though I would certainly not condone such activity, I am not sure it would automatically mean removal from the premises. Nor do I think it would speak of tolerance of such in my church whether or not my teen was still attending.