For those who want to know...RULES at my church!

[Timmy]

Originally Posted by Nina

Sis Lois,

Is there ever a time for Matthew 18 to be allowed to have it's way?(if Your brother offends You...)

And have You ever seen it in action?

Should it be obeyed even when overseers (Pastors, District Supers etc)
ignore it?

Nina

Not if it means letting the guy keep finding new victims for the rest of his life! (Not saying that's what you believe, Nina.)

People in positions of power need to be held accountable. Abusing the trust placed in them, never showing any remorse, thinking they're above the law, getting away with it, demanding "respect", expecting his followers not to touch God's "anointed", etc. That's not what Jesus had in mind. In that same chapter, look what He said in v 6! I doubt that He wants us to turn a blind eye, and just let Him deal with the guy in eternity. We need to do whatever it take to protect people from these monsters.

Abusive preachers need to be put on notice! People need to stand up! Go toe to toe with these cowards!

Originally Posted by Nina

Sis Lois,

Is there ever a time for Matthew 18 to be allowed to have it's way?(if Your brother offends You...)

And have You ever seen it in action?

Should it be obeyed even when overseers (Pastors, District Supers etc)
ignore it?

Nina

to forgive an offender is one thing, to put ourselves into the postion that they can abuse us again, is another.

forgiveness has nothing to do with justice. there comes a time that the abusers need to be held accountable for their actions, sadly to say this happens very little compared to the number of victims that are abused.

[Nina]

Originally Posted by Nina

Sis Lois,



Nina

This is the part of Matthew 18 I was referring to:

15Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

16But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

17And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

When Jesus said,"if he shall hear thee", I believe He meant, "If he repents."
In which case, You forgive. You've won. Both of You have won!

In many cases though, there is no repentance.
This is when the body's defense system is engaged to compellingly woo the trespasser to see his fault. Notice, it's still a fairly private matter. God is so merciful!

Still no repentance?

Bring out the big guns...The WHOLE BODY!
Oh if the BODY of CHRIST had such a desire for unity and confidence in these words written in red.

Now back to my original questions:

Is there ever a time for Matthew 18 to be allowed to have it's way?(if Your brother offends You...)

And have You ever seen it in action?

Should it be obeyed even when overseers (Pastors, District Supers etc)
ignore it?

Nina

[Timmy]

Originally Posted by Nina

This is the part of Mathew 18 I was referring to:

Ah! I thought you meant the forgiving seventy times seven part.

Yeah, the part you quoted could be used, for starters. But even if it goes all the way to kicking him out of the denomination/fellowship/church, the monster will just move along to another d/f/c and start all over again with a fresh set of victims. Unless he's put behind bars. IMO.

Originally Posted by Michlow

I just wanted to stick my nose in and say that that book really helped me a lot! I highly recommend it to anyone who has been in an abusive situation, anyone who knows someone who has been in an abusive situation, and it should be required reading for anyone in church leadership!

The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse is one I have recommended for years. It was tough reading for me when I read it after having left my former UPC church as I started to better see and understand some of the things that happened.

There used to be very little written on the subject, but now there's a fair amount.

BTW, Twisted Scriptures has been claimed. There is yet the copy of June Summer's book available.

[RandyWayne]

The book, Churches That Abuse by Ronald Enroth has entered the public domain and can be downloaded in PDF format here. http://www.reveal.org/development/Ch...that_Abuse.pdf

It is well worth reading.

A follow up book called Recovering from Churches that Abuse is also in the public domain now.
http://www.reveal.org/development/Re...that_Abuse.pdf

Originally Posted by Nina

Is there ever a time for Matthew 18 to be allowed to have it's way?(if Your brother offends You...)

And have You ever seen it in action?

Should it be obeyed even when overseers (Pastors, District Supers etc)
ignore it?

Originally Posted by Nina

This is the part of Matthew 18 I was referring to:

15Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

16But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

17And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

Nina, this is a good and valid question. However, there is a problem when one is dealing with an unhealthy church.

In an abusive type of church, one would never have the opportunity to bring the matter before the church. And even approaching the leader (or whoever else it might be), will also be difficult. If the leader is messed up and you approach him with the problems you see, the leader is going to turn on you. If you aren't kicked out, you will be labeled negatively so people will stay away from you and you will be hindered in anything at church. The one bringing up the problem becomes the problem, thus the only problem they have is you!

So while these passages should be followed whenever possible, in an unhealthy church it probably isn't going to be possible. In a healthy church with healthy leadership, one would feel free to approach them with any perceived wrongdoing or problem. And it probably wouldn't need to go further than the one on one. That's the beauty of having believers who are willing to work on things and admit when they are wrong and take corrective action if needed.

As to it being obeyed even if overseers like a District Superintendent, etc. ignore it, what are you meaning? Are you speaking of going outside the church and/or organization, or something else?

Originally Posted by RandyWayne

The book, Churches That Abuse by Ronald Enroth has entered the public domain and can be downloaded in PDF format here. http://www.reveal.org/development/Ch...that_Abuse.pdf

It is well worth reading.

Recovering From Churches that Abuse by the same author is also available at http://www.reveal.org/development/Re...that_Abuse.pdf

Every so often you can still come across old copies of his books.

LOL- you must have added to your post while I was making mine!

[RandyWayne]

I actually downloaded and read the entire first book -and have since scanned the second. What struck me in the first is that there was only ONE story which could be said to be a traditional "apostolic" type church. The rest were all nutso, whacked-out, organizations you never hear of. The very first chapter is about a church in CA right out of the 80's "radically saved" mentality. Hardly UPC, but very VERY abusive.