For those who want to know...RULES at my church!

Originally Posted by JaneEyre

Well, just as the Catholic Church is dealing with sexual abuse and it's real, I believe that spiritual abuse is just as real. Not many will admit that the body has the problem of spiritual abuse. The thinking is that "if we ignore the problem, it will not go away or if we don't talk about it, it will go away."

Also, I believe that most of the spiritual abuse I have seen has been done through ignorance. It was well-intentioned. This pastor that STS mentioned in her first post probably thought he had to "make the path so straight to line up the folks to keep them on track." His goal may have been to "get them to heaven" his way. Notice the little "h" in his. The path is straight. We're told that in the Bible - but we're not given all of these esoteric rules in the Bible.

People abuse their physical bodies through ignorance - as overeating, not exercising enough, etc. Much of the harm that comes to the body of Christ I believe is through ignorance and not knowing what to do for a healthy Church body.

Again very good post...you guys are just awesome!

[Sister Alvear]

Well, I read the rules and thought of a few churches...may the Lord have mercy on such weird mentality.

[JaneEyre]

Originally Posted by Sheltiedad

I started "fading away" when I was 16 and got my first job... then more so in college and the military.

In fact, I went for years with everything bottled up inside and never said a word to anyone, until I found FCF...

Sometimes healings happen when you least expect them.

Originally Posted by JaneEyre

Sometimes healings happen when you least expect them.

Honestly, I am not even looking for it... I view it more of an, "I got burned and I want to warn others so it doesn't happen to them" type of thing.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by Sheltiedad

Honestly, I am not even looking for it... I view it more of an, "I got burned and I want to warn others so it doesn't happen to them" type of thing.

I know these lists have been very therapeutic for me. Although some around me might feel a little nasty when I walk away, having spewed my ick on them.

[Amos]

My final post on the thread:

I apologize for offending anyone.

I know there are wack jobs out there that abuse people. I think it is often exagerrated around here however.

And as for people backsliding because they "leave the UPC," I don't believe anything of the kind.

It has everything to do with truth, and nothing to do with the organization a particular congregation is affiiated with.

I pray you all find peace and healing, but you won't do it as long as you are still talking endlessly about it.

You will heal when you are able to put it totally behind you.

God bless...

AMos

[Jekyll]

Originally Posted by rgcraig

Try to reword it - - might help.

Originally Posted by RandyWayne

Or better yet, why don't you try answering it first so we have a sense of what your asking?

Heh, sorry, don't have an answer...

When I returned to church, I knew in my heart that I would never agree with some of the beliefs held here. However I knew that I could not continue to throw EVERYTHING away for the sake of personal issues. I thought either I or the church might have changed. Well...

I also asked the MRS. about when you pick your life up and rebuild, how close do you come back to-totally/partially/little/not even close-submitting to a pastor.

Though not at a crossroads as before, we face another interesting dilemma in the upcoming months. Our pastor and us are totally on different pages as to our future here. So, of course, we have to pray and hope that God makes things clear to all.

But the question I still have is, where is that line drawn between craziness and submission, although I pretty much believe that we have to determine that through our own relationships with God and our pastors.

Well, maybe I did have an answer...

Originally Posted by Jekyll

Heh, sorry, don't have an answer...

When I returned to church, I knew in my heart that I would never agree with some of the beliefs held here. However I knew that I could not continue to throw EVERYTHING away for the sake of personal issues. I thought either I or the church might have changed. Well...

I also asked the MRS. about when you pick your life up and rebuild, how close do you come back to-totally/partially/little/not even close-submitting to a pastor.

Though not at a crossroads as before, we face another interesting dilemma in the upcoming months. Our pastor and us are totally on different pages as to our future here. So, of course, we have to pray and hope that God makes things clear to all.

But the question I still have is, where is that line drawn between craziness and submission, although I pretty much believe that we have to determine that through our own relationships with God and our pastors.

Well, maybe I did have an answer...

That brother is a hard answer for anyone but yourself...not being able to agree with everything was the reason I left the second time...my husband had had enough...we tried...we went back with an open heart...forgivness in our hearts and wanted to forgive...but things just started to get strange again...I could not follow or submit to everything again...and I knew I would never be used again or allowed to sing again...I would be merely a pew sitter and I am not like that....if and when I find my home church again I will want to be a part of things, not to the extent as before, but certainly some! I want to be a part of the body....not just a fringe relative.

[The Mrs]

Originally Posted by Jekyll

Heh, sorry, don't have an answer...

When I returned to church, I knew in my heart that I would never agree with some of the beliefs held here. However I knew that I could not continue to throw EVERYTHING away for the sake of personal issues. I thought either I or the church might have changed. Well...

I also asked the MRS. about when you pick your life up and rebuild, how close do you come back to-totally/partially/little/not even close-submitting to a pastor.

Though not at a crossroads as before, we face another interesting dilemma in the upcoming months. Our pastor and us are totally on different pages as to our future here. So, of course, we have to pray and hope that God makes things clear to all.

But the question I still have is, where is that line drawn between craziness and submission, although I pretty much believe that we have to determine that through our own relationships with God and our pastors.

Well, maybe I did have an answer...

Sorry I didn't answer you earlier Jekyll...I, too, was confused as to what you were wanting to know.

I'm still not totally sure here...maybe I just need some coffee.

A line drawn between craziness and submission....

I don't think the two have anything to do with each other. How can you submit to craziness? Is that what you're really asking???

I have been exposed to two other pastors since this abusive one. They have been awesome men of God. I could easily sit under them and have them lead me. They understand the value in a saint's personal relationship with God and do everything in their power to help you attain that relationship, and keep it strong. Not by issueing rules that become your 'guardrails', but by teaching you how to stay in the middle of the road.

I would have to say, once you're exposed to craziness and nonsense, submission would become a very grievous and hard word. Submission usually denotes love. It takes love to submit to anyone. I guess that would be your determining factor. Control, spiritual abuse, and cult-like tendencies kill that love. It may take quite a while, but eventually it brings pain, hurt, confusion. When it gets to the point of the bad outweighing the good, you start looking for answers, and eventually, you look for change.

[The Mrs]

Originally Posted by Amos

My final post on the thread:

I apologize for offending anyone.

I know there are wack jobs out there that abuse people. I think it is often exagerrated around here however.

And as for people backsliding because they "leave the UPC," I don't believe anything of the kind.

It has everything to do with truth, and nothing to do with the organization a particular congregation is affiiated with.

I pray you all find peace and healing, but you won't do it as long as you are still talking endlessly about it.

You will heal when you are able to put it totally behind you.

God bless...

AMos

Thanks for this Amos.

Your prayers for peace and healing are appreciated.

The healing process is not an easy thing. I wish it were as easy as just not talking about it, and 'putting it behind' us. Or just 'trusting in the Lord', or 'just worshipping Him'. Those are all nice words and thoughts, and to some degree they are all necessary, but reality is a bit different for each one of us. We all heal in different ways at different times. Sometimes these things NEED to be discussed and brought to the table, and sometimes they don't.

I understand how hard it may be for some ministers to see this stuff about a colleague, or another minister. And how hard it is to just sit back and watch what some may consider preacher bashing unfold. But on the flip side of that, it's almost as hard for others to sit back and watch the destruction of people by a man who just isn't handling things quite right. And to keep silent when somebody may have been helped by revealing truth. In this case, it's the truth of spiritually abusive behavior.

I'm glad this was here for others to join in and express themselves, and most likely by talking about it, will bring a measure of healing to their lives. I know it helps me. For the most part this is all in my past, and I rarely bring it up anymore. I believe most who have shared in this thread are of the same mindset...they rarely express these things, and appreciate that there is a time and a place to speak our minds, and to know that there are others who have walked the same road, in the same shoes.