Why do we use trinitarian..........

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Chan

This is the original post of the thread:

It is made clear daily that many around here believe all trinitarians are lost. I have always wondered how people reconcile the fact that they truely believe all trinitarians are lost when so much from trinitarians are used in Apostolic churches.

Why are the majority of songs in the song book written by trinitarians? Why do many sunday school books put out by Apostolic groups contain many teachings from trinitarians? If one truely believes these people are lost how do we reconcile the use of so much from them in Apostolic churches?

I remember when I use to teach the teen class we would get books for the teachers to read along with the Sunday School material and the books were always written by trinitarians. So I guess my real question is simply why do we use so many things written by "lost" people in the Apostolic church?

Notice that the questions are really variations of the same question: Why, if trinitarians are not saved, do Apostolic churches use trinitarian songs, books, Sunday School material, and Bibles translated by trinitarians consisting of 66 books that were decided by trinitarians to be scripture?

Ok my mistake.

Maybe the problem is that all of us who grew up in the UPC and other "oneness" movements were told that oneness was the only way, and we never "worked out our own salvation" via prayer and study.

Trinitarian Christians who live for Christ are not going to hell. You will never convince me of that. I have met too many wonderful people in seminary and around my area that are doing so much more for God than most of the apostolics I know. The fights over trinitarian versus oneness have marred BOTH theologies. Neither are that far off from each other when you study the histories, the documentation, and the scripture that each camp maintains. It is the difference between THEOLOGY and DOGMA. Dogma is not a good thing.

I am tired of stupid debates over things that divide members of God's kingdom. Seriously, stop wasting your time and go love someone and be their friend.

Originally Posted by jwharv

It is made clear daily that many around here believe all trinitarians are lost. I have always wondered how people reconcile the fact that they truely believe all trinitarians are lost when so much from trinitarians are used in Apostolic churches.

Why are the majority of songs in the song book written by trinitarians? Why do many sunday school books put out by Apostolic groups contain many teachings from trinitarians? If one truely believes these people are lost how do we reconcile the use of so much from them in Apostolic churches?

I remember when I use to teach the teen class we would get books for the teachers to read along with the Sunday School material and the books were always written by trinitarians. So I guess my real question is simply why do we use so many things written by "lost" people in the Apostolic church?

I for one don't think they are lost, I've not met one trinitarian in all my 43 years who believed in more then one God... This is just one of many more flat out lie and twisting of subjects many of us been taught!

Who seem to be confused and lost on this subject and many more as well are the ones who assume they are the only ones with truths on this matter. And last they ( ones who think they only have the truth) also seem to have a real hard time hearing or understand trinitarian believe in only ONE GOD (JESUS)! ~

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Chan

First, the term "Godhead" is just an archaic word for "godhood" (the state of being divine). Second, you create a false choice. It isn't a choice being between Godhead doctrines being false and Godhead doctrines having something to do with Christology. The choice is between the doctrines being about the nature of God and the doctrines being about Christology. The early Creeds were the result of resolving issues of Christology. Was Christ the same substance/essence as the Father? Was He just a created being who was of similar substance/essence as the Father? Was He something else entirely? Was He fully God and fully man in hypostatic union or was His humanity nothing more than some garment God put on and, thus, Jesus didn't have a human nature at all? Everyone involved with the debates resulting in the Creeds agreed that there is one God. The issue was who Christ is in relation to God.

I think the issue is, if you can put yourself in the time before Jesus was born, was who is God? Is He one or triune? Theology.

Once you know who God is then go on to figure out how God was manifest in the flesh. Christology.

Trinitarians start off wrong by saying God is a Trinity and the Son is eternal. These teachings aren't found in the OT. The Jews of Jesus time and before would never have thought to worship God as a Trinity. Trinitarians start off wrong in their idea of who God is and end up wrong when they assume the eternal Son came in the flesh instead of God being made flesh.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by jwharv

It is made clear daily that many around here believe all trinitarians are lost. I have always wondered how people reconcile the fact that they truely believe all trinitarians are lost when so much from trinitarians are used in Apostolic churches.

Why are the majority of songs in the song book written by trinitarians? Why do many sunday school books put out by Apostolic groups contain many teachings from trinitarians? If one truely believes these people are lost how do we reconcile the use of so much from them in Apostolic churches?
...

To understand this phenomenon I think you have to remember that "we" (Oneness Apostolics) used to be trinitarians. All of the founders of our movement grew up praying and seeking God with their arms around the shoulders of trinitarian brethren.

I have a collection of Howard Goss', E.N. Bell's and many other early apostolic and holiness Newspapers from about 1881 through the 1960's (the later stuff is, well... "evangelistic," sometimes in the wrong way). There are articles that can be considered "Oneness" going back to before 1900. It becomes apparent from my reading that R.E. McAlister's famous "revelation" at the Arroyo campground was a part of a stream of teaching and thought that had been present for some time. The day before, the camp evangelist had preached an essentially Oneness message.

All of the Oneness people had already spent something like 20 years praying fervently in the Spirit with their trinitarian brethren, in fact, at the time they really didn't seem to think there were any differences between themselves. You have to really put yourself in their shoes. Travel and Pentecostal fellowship was a rare and precious thing for them and when they had the chance to meet with someone "of like precious faith" they were ecstatic. Just look at how they talk about one another (before the 1916 split).

All of this talk of trinitarians being automatically lost is innovation. This new attitude arose out of the bitterness of the 1916 General Conference and has left an unfortunate blemish on the Oneness fellowships of today. This spirit of bitterness unfortunately became institutionalized within the UPC at the time of the merger. Radicals from the PAJC fought their own who they accused of being "soft" and "greasy" and they particularly despised the old PCI men. There was no Christian charity shown when they proclaimed things across the pulpit like, "I could smell the liberals when I flew..." [into town for the meeting]. Such a spirit is not even "conservative" (as they want you to believe) but was so reactionary that you'd have to equate it Bolshevism if it were within the political spectrum.

These men hounded and harassed good Christian apostolics from the ministry and set themselves up as authoritarian potentates where ever they were allowed to have power. Just look at the types of accusations their disciples hurl at our leaders today. They hurled the same insults at every UPC superintendent from Howard Goss to Kenneth Haney. Nothing will satisfy their lust, because there is nothing in the Bride of Christ that is supposed to satisfy that kind of lust.

I remember being in a meeting where Stanley Chambers spoke and left a mark of compassion for the lost upon my soul. As I was walking out afterward, there was a group of these radicals (I refuse to call them "conservatives") and they were loudly boasting about what they'd like to say to the "compromisers" represented by Stanley Chambers and the like. The thing is, when Brother Chambers opened the floor up to questions and invited comments, these guys just sat there and didn't say a word. That's how foul they are. They are not satisfied with sending every "trinitarian" to hell. The have to send most of the Oneness people off as well. And Stanley Chambers of all people...??? But that's how these people work out their own salvation, not through Christ, but through their pride and by bullying the brethren.

The true conservatives of the apostolic movement adhere to the spirit of Howard Goss, John Dearing, W. T. Witherspoon and Stanley Chambers. These men taught a spirit of humility that is sadly lacking in our movement today.

Originally Posted by mizpeh

I think the issue is, if you can put yourself in the time before Jesus was born, was who is God? Is He one or triune? Theology.

Even trinitarians believe there is only one God. As for prior to the Incarnation, the Jews had this concept of the memra by which they meant the revealed essence of God, i.e. God as He interacted with humanity. This was distinguished from God's hidden essence - that part of God that no human in this present life could ever know or experience. John, in the beginning of his gospel, referred to this memra as the "logos."

Once you know who God is then go on to figure out how God was manifest in the flesh. Christology.

But it was the logos that "became flesh and dwelt among us."

Trinitarians start off wrong by saying God is a Trinity and the Son is eternal. These teachings aren't found in the OT. The Jews of Jesus time and before would never have thought to worship God as a Trinity. Trinitarians start off wrong in their idea of who God is and end up wrong when they assume the eternal Son came in the flesh instead of God being made flesh.

Many trinitarians do start out with three and work back to one; but not all of us. Also, not all trinitarians believe in the "eternal Son" doctrine.

Originally Posted by sola gratia

See how even within oneness ranks there are a variety of opinions. I have spent years studying this... intensly... I lean towards trinitarianism as a result of those studies... however it is flawed.... AS ARE ALL GODHEAD DOCTRINES

It is finite man's best attempt to understand infinite God

Amen and I totally agree with you!