1000 year reign

[mfblume]

But Teacher also asked what was Adam intended to rule over? There would have been no sinners had he not sinned. So what would he rule over if the Lord gave him dominion over the earth and there were no sinners?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Confusion in the amillenial theology.

Brother, you speak of confusion in amill teaching, and yet were not able to fully discuss 1 Cor 15.

Also, the deception of nations is to gather them against the church. This has never happened. A nation somewhere and always was not against the church at all. You really need to properly represent us before you tear down what you think we believe. You should confirm your beliefs about our position before you propose misgivings in our beliefs that we do not propose at all.

But how is it they were first killed during the reign of the beast which they say was Nero BEFORE THEY TOOK PART IN THE FIRST RESURRECTION? They were slain by Rome before they were born again unto Christ?

Then they are supposed to be reigning for a thousand years (which is the Church age).

You also misunderstand this. The thousand years is technically a VERY LONG TIME. It is not specifically the church age in total because there is time after the 1000 years in which satan is loosed. After this period time passes, we do not know how long, just a short season, and then the resurrection occurs.

And then before the "beheading" by Nero, there was of course 40 years when the cross occurred and the church began. In other words, simply read "1000 years" as A VERY LONG TIME. Jesus binds the devil on the cross, which you admit did occur, and he was bound A VERY LONG TIME.

Verse 4 shows us the saints ruling in the first resurrection, which is salvation -- life from the dead (Rom 6:13). John also sees what occurs as the years go by, in the same generation as those who killed the Lord, which is the great martyrdoms through Rome's persecution. (Nero fought the church for 3.5 years, according to history -- and that was before the additional 3.5 years Rome took to besiege and destroy Jerusalem!!!!)

The saints martyred and who are in glory continue being in the body of Christ and continue ruling with Jesus just as we are ruling now, since it is a spiritual rule, recall.

The rest of the dead in verse 5 speak of the sinners. They do not rise until the resurrection of damnation which takes them to the white throne, while the rapture takes us to the white throne.

The reason we read they who have part in the first resurrection shall not taste of the second death is because the second death is the lake of fire. Those who are in the first resurrection are the ones who WERE SAVED. The first resurrection is salvation (Ro 6:11, 13). Those saved will not go to the lake of fire!


Notice the first resurrection is SPIRITUAL as well as the second death is SPIRITUAL from which those in the first resurrection are saved.

The first death is physical and the second resurrection is physical.

Anyway, I wish you would respond in detail to my posts as I do to your own.

I will not be posting much this week since I am in the throes of moving.

God bless!

[mfblume]

BUMP for Michael the Disciple

Posts you did not respond to point by point. (Take your time)

http://apostolicfriendsforum.com/sho...&postcount=188

http://apostolicfriendsforum.com/sho...&postcount=189

http://apostolicfriendsforum.com/sho...&postcount=190

I claim the points I raise in these posts show millennialism to be an error due to its conflict with statements made in 1Cor 15.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by mfblume

But Teacher also asked what was Adam intended to rule over? There would have been no sinners had he not sinned. So what would he rule over if the Lord gave him dominion over the earth and there were no sinners?

YHWH gave Adam dominion over the Earth. He was allowed to name the animals and he would be greater than they.

What Adam was given dominion over is not the same thing we are promised to rule.

25: But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
26: And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. Rev. 2:25-27

Adam had dominion over the Earth in its very young stage. He was the Father of men who would eventually become nations.

Now there are NATIONS OF PEOPLE. These are what overcomers are destined to rule over.

I showed in an earlier post the scriptures that actually tell what Saints will do AFTER THE RESURRECTION. I have been asking what you all believe (by scripture of course) about the same.

After the resurrection what will the Saints reign over since they will reign for ever and ever.

Also we should not see the mortals living on Earth as just sinners. It seems that the majority will actually come under the rule of Christ and fear him walking in his ways.

The Earth will be repopulated and mortal beings will continue on far into the future.

I know of no other purpose there is for THIS SCRIPTURE:

19: For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20: For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21: Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22: For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23: And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

The creation groans to be delivered. This happens AFTER THE RESURRECTION. There will be a glorious work to make the Earth the Paradise God intended.

Thats the reason for the 1000 years. To bring it to pass!

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

YHWH gave Adam dominion over the Earth. He was allowed to name the animals and he would be greater than they.

What Adam was given dominion over is not the same thing we are promised to rule.

25: But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
26: And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. Rev. 2:25-27

Brother, the above is fulfilled in the church age. So it would contradict the thought of what Adam was to reign over since no sinners existed in Adam's day. It is the church age ruling. But 1 Cor 15 says ALL ENEMIES are defeated at the rapture, death being the final one. And that allows for no later rule as you describe, forcing this to refer to the church age.

WHY DOES 1 COR 15 SAY ALL ENEMIES ARE DESTROYED AT THE RAPTURE?

How can all enemies be destroyed at the rapture and you have enemies after the rapture in a millennium?

And when all is restored, and no sinners exist, it will be the rule that God intended for Adam where there would have been no sinners had Adam not fallen.

You spoke as though there is nothing to rule over in our view after the rapture, if there are no sinners left. Teacher showed you that Adam was to rule
without any sinners present.

Adam had dominion over the Earth in its very young stage. He was the Father of men who would eventually become nations.

Now there are NATIONS OF PEOPLE. These are what overcomers are destined to rule over.

Now.

I showed in an earlier post the scriptures that actually tell what Saints will do AFTER THE RESURRECTION. I have been asking what you all believe (by scripture of course) about the same.

After the resurrection what will the Saints reign over since they will reign for ever and ever.

We told you. The same that Adam was intended to rule over before sinners existed. All will be restored to the state Adam was in before he sinned, plus more!

Also we should not see the mortals living on Earth as just sinners. It seems that the majority will actually come under the rule of Christ and fear him walking in his ways.

The Earth will be repopulated and mortal beings will continue on far into the future.

I know of no other purpose there is for THIS SCRIPTURE:

19: For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20: For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21: Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22: For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23: And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

The creation groans to be delivered. This happens AFTER THE RESURRECTION. There will be a glorious work to make the Earth the Paradise God intended.

Agreed. This is when the rapture occurs, and death is destroyed as 1 Cor 15 says, which you are not addressing still. CREATION CANNOT BE FULLY RESTORED WITH DEATH STILL IN EXISTENCE. This proves millennialism as error as well. Romans 8 cannot apply to any time except when death no longer exists. It cannot refer to your millennium. THE BONDAGE is DEATH. BONDAGE OF CORRUPTION!!!!

Rom 8:21 KJV Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

When our BODIES are redeemed note what 1 Cor 15 says:

1Co 15:54 KJV So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

I have been trying to show you for days and days now that when our bodies are redeemed at the rapture, death is GONE FOR EVER FROM ANYTHING. Creation is delivered from BONDAGE OF CORRUPTION! That is from DEATH! But you refuse to see that death is gone, and ALL ENEMIES are gone at the point of the rapture. Your reference in Rom 8 solidifies my point even more! THANKS! Death is the last enemy, and all other enemies are defeated before this. Death is the last. And when the creation is delivered from the bondage of corruption (death), this will make the end of the Son's rule, not the beginning as in millennialism.

Thats the reason for the 1000 years. To bring it to pass!

1 Cor 15 disallows for a millennium. And your avoidance of my most recent points in that chapter, in response to your response, shows a great weakness in your belief system.

Now while I answer you, why do you continue to refuse to answer me?

I am finished until you can answer my responses to your responses from 1 Cor 15. You are not being fair about this discussion. Recall the golden rule, bro. You want me to answer you, then please answer me.

[mfblume]

BUMP

Originally Posted by mfblume

BUMP for Michael the Disciple

Posts you did not respond to point by point. (Take your time)

http://apostolicfriendsforum.com/sho...&postcount=188

http://apostolicfriendsforum.com/sho...&postcount=189

http://apostolicfriendsforum.com/sho...&postcount=190

I claim the points I raise in these posts show millennialism to be an error due to its conflict with statements made in 1Cor 15.

[Michael The Disciple]

Mfblume

1 Cor 15 disallows for a millennium. And your avoidance of my most recent points in that chapter, in response to your response, shows a great weakness in your belief system.

Now while I answer you, why do you continue to refuse to answer me?

I am finished until you can answer my responses to your responses from 1 Cor 15. You are not being fair about this discussion. Recall the golden rule, bro. You want me to answer you, then please answer me.

Mfblume:

Your constant accusations weary me. I gave my comments on 1 Cor. 15. They are plain to see in post 222. You want to force me into a making counterpoints to your counterpoints.

You have acted throughout the entire discussion as if a few verses in 1 Cor. 15 is the COMPLETE DISCUSSION OF THE 1000 YEAR REIGN. But it is not. As important as it is it is just one aspect of the number of scriptures that must be considered.

We are into the realm now of repeating the same things pretty much. Therefore I will give my summation of the matter. If you chose to respond fine. If you do not fine. If no one else responds I will be finished.

The errors of the amillenial doctrine at least in part.

1. Jesus said we would rule the NATIONS AFTER HIS COMING.

25: But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
26: And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. Rev. 2:25-27

They answer this by saying Jesus already came in 70 ad. That would mean the second coming of Jesus already happened. A position that contradicts not only scripture but historical fact.

2. They teach satan is bound right now from deceiving the nations.

Yet Paul who was an Apostle of Jesus said he was "god" to this world.

3: But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. 2 Cor. 4:3-4

So satan at present is god to this world.

Jesus said he had a SEAT in this Church age that does not sound like he is shut up in a bottomless pit as John said he WILL BE in the 1000 year reign.

12: And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;
13: I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth. Rev. 2:12-13

So Jesus recognized satan having a seat in the Church age even telling where it was.

But he will have NOWHERE TO SIT during the 1000 year reign because he will be in a pit with NO BOTTOM!

2: And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3: And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

3. Amills proclaim there will be no nations as we know them with mortal people.

Yet various scriptures in the Tanakh teach otherwise:

22: For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23: And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
24: And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. Isaiah 66:22-24

Verse 24 speaks of Gehenna. The same place Jesus used to teach about the place of the fire judgment commomly called Hell. In the 1000 reign MORTALS defined as ALL FLESH shall come to worship YHWH. They will be given a view of Gehenna that will serve to show them the great power of YHWH and what happens to his enemies.

Similar scripture showing mortals living on Earth after the second coming.

16: And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17: And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18: And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19: This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. Zech. 14:16-19

To scriptures like these they simply say "they dont mean what you think they mean".


4. They say the book of Revelation has been fulfilled. Already came and went doing away with its relevance to at least 19 centuries of Christians. They say the beast was Nero in the first century. The Bible says the beast will be active killing Christians at the second coming of Jesus.

11: And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12: His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13: And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14: And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15: And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16: And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
17: And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18: That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19: And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20: And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. Rev. 19:

So unless the second coming happened while Nero ruled Rome he obviously was not the end time beast of Revelation.

These concepts lead me to believe there will be a literal reign of Christ and the Saints on the Earth and that the book of Revelation has its main fulfillment in the future not in the past.

Mfblume, I wish you no ill. You are a shining light in the matter of the Apostolic headcovering teaching as well as the truth of overcoming sin.

Hope one day you will come to greater understanding in this realm also. And may Jesus Christ our Lord guide all of us into all truth.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Mfblume:

Your constant accusations weary me. I gave my comments on 1 Cor. 15. They are plain to see in post 222. You want to force me into a making counterpoints to your counterpoints.

You have acted throughout the entire discussion as if a few verses in 1 Cor. 15 is the COMPLETE DISCUSSION OF THE 1000 YEAR REIGN. But it is not. As important as it is it is just one aspect of the number of scriptures that must be considered.

If one or two simple plain verses throw out your entire argument, then so be it.

1 Cor 15 says that Christ defeats ALL ENEMIES at the rapture. I repeated and repeated this point. You could never respond, when you easily could have taken the time to do so. I found a few verses that shot you completely out of 1 Cor 15, as though you wanted to forget they existed there. You went all around creation searching for OTHER issues to support your doctrine. Your silence on those verses speaks so loud it's hard to hear anything else you say.

The simple truth of the Word proved you wrong in that you said Christ only defeated death FOR THE SAINTS then, but the text says ALL ENEMIES without one mention of it regarding the saints alone. I do not care how much you hop all around the board, when those few verses stop you dead in your tracks, all the amount of hopping around you do cannot change that.

Nobody said it w as the complete discussion of the 1000 years. But three verses can still shoot down the possibility of an entire doctrine.

It's like proposing Jesus never resurrected. Two verses can prove that wrong, even though there may be hundreds of other verses somebody tries using to propose such nonsense.

1 Cor 15 IS SOLID PROOF that there can be no millennium after the church age. And your constant refusal to address that point makes it more blatantly obvious you really are cornered in your doctrine. You cannot answer!

If two or three verses prove millennialism wrong, then they prove it wrong, and nothing else need be discussed.

We are into the realm now of repeating the same things pretty much.

Incorrect, brother. You can only repeat since you refuse to respond to my points I raise.

YOU HAVE NEVER responded to 1 Cor 15's note about ALL ENEMIES defeated at the rapture. You NEVER responded to 1 Cor 15's cessation of rule for the Son at the rapture. And I will not be amazed if you still do not respond in your last few words below. Wow. This really showed me something, brother! I want all our readers to see this.

Therefore I will give my summation of the matter. If you chose to respond fine. If you do not fine. If no one else responds I will be finished.

I think you SHOULD be finished, since your argument is entirely proved wrong by 1 Cor 15. And proof is evident in your inability to respond.

The errors of the amillenial doctrine at least in part.

1. Jesus said we would rule the NATIONS AFTER HIS COMING.

That was a coming in judgment in AD70 against Israel. And the church is indeed ruling with Christ now. Christ no longer rules after the rapture, disallowing a millennium after the rapture, as per 1 Cor 15. (Man, I love that chapter more and more!)

They answer this by saying Jesus already came in 70 ad. That would mean the second coming of Jesus already happened. A position that contradicts not only scripture but historical fact.

Incorrect. The SECOND COMING does not refer to a localized coming in judgment against Israel. When He first came, He came in general coming for the entire world. The SECOND coming is similar. He is coming in a general coming for the entire world. He came and went in MANY MANY ways and comings ever since the first coming. Bless God, He came to Sychar one day in John 4. We do not take every reference to a "coming" and say it must be the second COMING. That would be silly.

2. They teach satan is bound right now from deceiving the nations.

Yet Paul who was an Apostle of Jesus said he was "god" to this world.

You do not even represent us properly, but choose to ignore what WE ACTUALLY SAID. You only show PART of what we said. We said he bound the devil SO AS TO DISABLE THE DEVIL FROM GATHERING NATIONS AGAINST THE CHURCH by deception. You conveniently chose to ignore the capitalized parts.

Jesus said he had a SEAT in this Church age that does not sound like he is shut up in a bottomless pit as John said he WILL BE in the 1000 year reign.

Again you ignore what we actually said.

But he will have NOWHERE TO SIT during the 1000 year reign because he will be in a pit with NO BOTTOM!

Do you also actually believe Jesus is a lamb with seven eyes and horns, too? We must never take figurative language far too literally. His pit with no bottom is speaking about the degree of limitation satan has been forced to experience. Using your reasoning, and looking at figurative visions far too literally, we could say the Lamb cannot be Jesus, because Rev 1 shows Jesus as a man with eyes of fire, and only two of them at that, while the Lamb has seven of them and is not a human being! Just as you cannot see satan in a visionary pit and be seated in Smyrna at the same time, why do you see the Lamb and the one with fiery eyes as the same person?

You would never conclude anything so silly about the lamb, though. However, you do that with the pit and the seating pictures. Brother, we cannot make a doctrine out of visions!

continued...

[mfblume]

...conclusion

3. Amills proclaim there will be no nations as we know them with mortal people.

Yet various scriptures in the Tanakh teach otherwise:

22: For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23: And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
24: And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. Isaiah 66:22-24

Verse 24 speaks of Gehenna. The same place Jesus used to teach about the place of the fire judgment commonly called Hell. In the 1000 reign MORTALS defined as ALL FLESH shall come to worship YHWH. They will be given a view of Gehenna that will serve to show them the great power of YHWH and what happens to his enemies.

Impossible, because of the VERY SCRIPTURES YOU REFUSE TO COMMENT ABOUT in 1 Cor 15, where ALL ENEMIES of the Lord are vanquished at the rapture, especially death, the last one. This makes Isaiah's prophecy to speak of the events in the church age.

Similar scripture showing mortals living on Earth after the second coming.

16: And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17: And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18: And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19: This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. Zech. 14:16-19

You can SAY they speak of time after the church age, but 1 Cor 15 prohibits that IN THE VERSES YOU REFUSE TO RESPOND TO. And the above prophecy does not mention the second coming. You added that thought.

To scriptures like these they simply say "they don't mean what you think they mean".

"Simply say"? Ahh, no, my brother. They contradict 1 Cor 15 IF YOU ARE CORRECT. I detailingly compare these statements with what other scriptures disallow or allow. And since THE VERY SCRIPTURES YOU REFUSE TO RESPOND TO in 1 Cor 15 disallow them to speak of the Millennium, then they cannot speak of the millennium. The entire Bible must fit together, without contradiction, or we have evidence that our doctrine is wrong. Your refusal to respond proves your doctrine cannot stand. do not make it sound like I merely "SIMPLY SAY".

4. They say the book of Revelation has been fulfilled. Already came and went doing away with its relevance to at least 19 centuries of Christians. They say the beast was Nero in the first century. The Bible says the beast will be active killing Christians at the second coming of Jesus.

Incorrect. Nothing is said about the second coming. The second coming is the rapture and resurrection of the just.

11: And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12: His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13: And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14: And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15: And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16: And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
17: And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18: That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19: And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20: And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshiped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. Rev. 19:

Nothing is mentioned here of rapturing the church. Just FIGHTING nations. Judgment ALONE. And it is a spiritual fight since the WORD is symbolized as defeating, alone.

So unless the second coming happened while Nero ruled Rome he obviously was not the end time beast of Revelation.

Entirely wrong and actually ignorant of what we clearly stated about the second coming being rapture and the coming in Rev being localized judgment.

These concepts lead me to believe there will be a literal reign of Christ and the Saints on the Earth and that the book of Revelation has its main fulfillment in the future not in the past.

Cannot be since it contradicts 1 Cor 15.

Mfblume, I wish you no ill. You are a shining light in the matter of the Apostolic headcovering teaching as well as the truth of overcoming sin.

Hope one day you will come to greater understanding in this realm also. And may Jesus Christ our Lord guide all of us into all truth.

I wish you no ill will, neither. I appreciate your integrity on stands that others refuse to stand for. However, I would pray you see yourself and your inability as to why you will not deal with something that is very simply stated in two or three verses of 1 Cor 15. When we are honest with ourselves, we should be concerned that we cannot answer certain challenges of scripture. Why live and die for a belief system that is cornered with just a few verses, and sweep them beneath the carpet and pull out other verses that never really say anything explicit about the position in time in which we claim they are fulfilled?

One should be concerned that three or four verses can stump an entire doctrine in one area of itself, leaving it unable to stand despite the abundant elaborate use of other scriptures and issues involved in the doctrine.

Take care, and all the best!