John3 and Romans2: Part2

[coksiw]

The whole thing about “there is no law” that Paul was referring to,
It begs the question: what is the law?

Is it just the “thou shalt not”? No, it is is a whole system of instructions with rewards (blessings) and punishments (curses) for obedience or disobedience. It is a covenant!!

There “there is no law” doesn’t mean they don’t know right from wrong, but that there is no a covenant which includes punishments they are subject to, yet will be judged by God anyway because they ARE aware of wrong doing.


Adam sinned in a very significant way, by disobeying a direct commandment of God that came from his audible voice. Many sinners after him did wrong knowingly from their understanding of good and evil, but it wasn’t in disobedience to God’s audible instructions. You would need to read more Bible to understand the severity of the situation.


Anyways, then, if they know sin, why do Noah, Abraham, and later, the children of Israel, needed instructions about how to live, that came as a covenant?

[Amanah]

The book of the law (the Pentateuch) contains numerous types and shadows of Christ, foreshadowing His coming and redemptive work. Here are some examples:

1. *Passover Lamb* (Exodus 12): The Passover lamb's blood on the doorposts prefigures Christ's blood shed for our redemption.
2. *Manna* (Exodus 16): The bread from heaven represents Christ, the Bread of Life (John 6:35).
3. *Tabernacle* (Exodus 25-40): The tabernacle's design and furnishings symbolize Christ's presence and ministry:
- *Mercy Seat* (Exodus 25:17-22): Representing God's throne, it prefigures Christ's intercession.
- *Veil* (Exodus 26:31-35): Symbolizing separation, it is torn apart at Christ's crucifixion (Matthew 27:51).
4. *Sacrificial System* (Leviticus 1-7): The various offerings foreshadow Christ's sacrifice:
- *Burnt Offering* (Leviticus 1): Representing complete dedication to God, it prefigures Christ's total surrender.
- *Sin Offering* (Leviticus 4): Symbolizing atonement for sin, it points to Christ's sacrifice for our sins.
5. *Priesthood* (Leviticus 8-10): The priesthood, particularly the High Priest, represents Christ's mediating role:
- *High Priest's garments* (Exodus 28): Symbolize Christ's glory and priesthood (Hebrews 4:14-16).
6. *Feasts* (Leviticus 23): The feasts foreshadow Christ's work:
- *Feast of Trumpets* (Leviticus 23:24-25): Symbolizing awakening and repentance, it prefigures Christ's call to resurrection.

These examples demonstrate how the book of the law contains types and shadows of Christ, pointing to His redemptive work and reinforcing the unity of the Old and New Testaments.

[Amanah]

Even in the so called "dispensation of conscience" (the period between the fall and the giving of the Law at Sinai), people were saved by faith, just as they were in other "dispensations." Here are some examples:

1. Adam and Eve (Genesis 3:6-21): After the fall, they demonstrated faith by sacrificing animals, indicating their belief in a future Redeemer (Genesis 3:21).
2. Abel (Genesis 4:4-5): Abel offered a blood sacrifice, showing his faith in a coming Savior.
3. Enoch (Genesis 5:24): Enoch's faith pleased God, and he was taken up without seeing death.
4. Noah (Genesis 6-9): Noah's faith led him to build the ark, saving his family and two of every kind of animal.
5. Melchizedek (Genesis 14:18-20): This mysterious priest-king blessed Abram, symbolizing Christ's future priesthood and kingship.
6. Abraham (Genesis 15:6): Abraham believed God, and his faith was counted as righteousness.

These examples demonstrate that, even in the so called "dispensation of conscience," people were saved by faith in the coming Messiah, just as they were in other "dispensations." God's plan of salvation has always been by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8-9).

[donfriesen1]

I'm convinced by the reading of the responses to my words that I'm not completely understood. We have a saying in society -- "those who fall through the cracks" . It speaks of a system which is with faults which allows the possibility that some of those who are supposed to be served by this system, are not reached. The system in the things we write of is the Church, who attempt to bring the Gospel -- that is what we provide to a condemned world as the remedy to get uncondemned. Some fall through the cracks and aren't serviced. Of those who fall through the cracks and don't get the Gospel are some who are attempting to live right. (Many of those who comment here would describe this as good works. But please park that thought for a moment, long enough to ask yourself how you would want yourself described if you wanted to live right but had never heard of the Gospel or had never heard of the Bible. [I met a lady this week who said 'what's Bible?' when I asked her if she read the Bible? She works at Walmart!!! I then said 'Torah' and then she knew. Imagine -- living in North America, speaking English well and daily serving people in public, yet not understanding what Bible is!!!] You don't describe yourself as a legalist but just as a person who wants to do the right thing. One form of legalism may be someone who knows or has heard about Jesus/Bible but shuns religion in any form and tells themselves they'll be good enough in God's eyes if they just are a good person. There are those in the world who have never heard the Gospel or the Bible who die but have attempted to live right. Let's not apply our religiously-educated minds and place a religious label on any one like this who have no religion when they don't have the Word. See them as God would see them, someone who has sinned but after the fact wants to live right. Does God send someone like this to hell? They've fallen through the cracks as far as the Gospel is concerned. The system has failed yet these want to live right the best way they know how. Those of us who are Biblically literate will get out our Bibles and quote the verses which describe those who have heard the Gospel, but don't describe those who've fallen through the cracks and haven't heard. Are the verses quoted accurate and applicable to those who have heard of the Gospel. Of course. Its God's Word. But do these verses apply to those who've never heard but attempt to live right? The many Biblically-literate would say this person doesn't fit into the norm of the Word, (they don't), and say they are condemned because they are outside of the norm. I'd say a just God looks at these who don't have the Word and say they are trying to live right. I'll let them in to heaven. This is what Paul speaks of in Ro2.12-16. Why would any want to describe God as wanting to condemn these who do the best they can when they don't have the Word. God is eager to get as as many as he can into heaven, not eager to condemn as many as he can. Plz don't confuse those Paul speaks of with the many who reject the Bible and Jesus, having heard but turning aside from Him. That is a completely different side of this story. I'm only speaking of those who fall in the cracks. Will God condemn those who don't have the Word but love to sin. Yes, because God is just in condemning these but not condemning the few who never hear yet want to live right. Does the Bible teach NT salvation is for those who place their faith in the shed blood of Jesus and are born again by water and Spirit? Yes, that is the only Gospel message that the Church is commissioned to preach. But God will not condemn those who attempt to live right who haven't ever heard the Gospel. That would not describe Paul's God as a just God. Let me repeat I'm speaking of those who fall through the cracks.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by donfriesen1

I'm convinced by the reading of the responses to my words that I'm not completely understood. We have a saying in society -- "those who fall through the cracks" . It speaks of a system which is with faults which allows the possibility that some of those who are supposed to be served by this system, are not reached. The system in the things we write of is the Church, who attempt to bring the Gospel -- that is what we provide to a condemned world as the remedy to get uncondemned. Some fall through the cracks and aren't serviced. Of those who fall through the cracks and don't get the Gospel are some who are attempting to live right. (Many of those who comment here would describe this as good works. But please park that thought for a moment, long enough to ask yourself how you would want yourself described if you wanted to live right but had never heard of the Gospel or had never heard of the Bible. [I met a lady this week who said 'what's Bible?' when I asked her if she read the Bible? She works at Walmart!!! I then said 'Torah' and then she knew. Imagine -- living in North America, speaking English well and daily serving people in public, yet not understanding what Bible is!!!] You don't describe yourself as a legalist but just as a person who wants to do the right thing. One form of legalism may be someone who knows or has heard about Jesus/Bible but shuns religion in any form and tells themselves they'll be good enough in God's eyes if they just are a good person. There are those in the world who have never heard the Gospel or the Bible who die but have attempted to live right. Let's not apply our religiously-educated minds and place a religious label on any one like this who have no religion when they don't have the Word. See them as God would see them, someone who has sinned but after the fact wants to live right. Does God send someone like this to hell? They've fallen through the cracks as far as the Gospel is concerned. The system has failed yet these want to live right the best way they know how. Those of us who are Biblically literate will get out our Bibles and quote the verses which describe those who have heard the Gospel, but don't describe those who've fallen through the cracks and haven't heard. Are the verses quoted accurate and applicable to those who have heard of the Gospel. Of course. Its God's Word. But do these verses apply to those who've never heard but attempt to live right? The many Biblically-literate would say this person doesn't fit into the norm of the Word, (they don't), and say they are condemned because they are outside of the norm. I'd say a just God looks at these who don't have the Word and say they are trying to live right. I'll let them in to heaven. This is what Paul speaks of in Ro2.12-16. Why would any want to describe God as wanting to condemn these who do the best they can when they don't have the Word. God is eager to get as as many as he can into heaven, not eager to condemn as many as he can. Plz don't confuse those Paul speaks of with the many who reject the Bible and Jesus, having heard but turning aside from Him. That is a completely different side of this story. I'm only speaking of those who fall in the cracks. Will God condemn those who don't have the Word but love to sin. Yes, because God is just in condemning these but not condemning the few who never hear yet want to live right. Does the Bible teach NT salvation is for those who place their faith in the shed blood of Jesus and are born again by water and Spirit? Yes, that is the only Gospel message that the Church is commissioned to preach. But God will not condemn those who attempt to live right who haven't ever heard the Gospel. That would not describe Paul's God as a just God. Let me repeat I'm speaking of those who fall through the cracks.

Don, those who “fall through the cracks” are the ones who strolled down the BROAD WAY and entered through the WIDE GATE.

Please by all means, explain what Jesus meant when He said “ Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and FEW there be that find it.”

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by donfriesen1

I'm convinced by the reading of the responses to my words that I'm not completely understood. We have a saying in society -- "those who fall through the cracks" . It speaks of a system which is with faults which allows the possibility that some of those who are supposed to be served by this system, are not reached. The system in the things we write of is the Church, who attempt to bring the Gospel -- that is what we provide to a condemned world as the remedy to get uncondemned. Some fall through the cracks and aren't serviced. Of those who fall through the cracks and don't get the Gospel are some who are attempting to live right. (Many of those who comment here would describe this as good works. But please park that thought for a moment, long enough to ask yourself how you would want yourself described if you wanted to live right but had never heard of the Gospel or had never heard of the Bible. [I met a lady this week who said 'what's Bible?' when I asked her if she read the Bible? She works at Walmart!!! I then said 'Torah' and then she knew. Imagine -- living in North America, speaking English well and daily serving people in public, yet not understanding what Bible is!!!] You don't describe yourself as a legalist but just as a person who wants to do the right thing. One form of legalism may be someone who knows or has heard about Jesus/Bible but shuns religion in any form and tells themselves they'll be good enough in God's eyes if they just are a good person. There are those in the world who have never heard the Gospel or the Bible who die but have attempted to live right. Let's not apply our religiously-educated minds and place a religious label on any one like this who have no religion when they don't have the Word. See them as God would see them, someone who has sinned but after the fact wants to live right. Does God send someone like this to hell? They've fallen through the cracks as far as the Gospel is concerned. The system has failed yet these want to live right the best way they know how. Those of us who are Biblically literate will get out our Bibles and quote the verses which describe those who have heard the Gospel, but don't describe those who've fallen through the cracks and haven't heard. Are the verses quoted accurate and applicable to those who have heard of the Gospel. Of course. Its God's Word. But do these verses apply to those who've never heard but attempt to live right? The many Biblically-literate would say this person doesn't fit into the norm of the Word, (they don't), and say they are condemned because they are outside of the norm. I'd say a just God looks at these who don't have the Word and say they are trying to live right. I'll let them in to heaven. This is what Paul speaks of in Ro2.12-16. Why would any want to describe God as wanting to condemn these who do the best they can when they don't have the Word. God is eager to get as as many as he can into heaven, not eager to condemn as many as he can. Plz don't confuse those Paul speaks of with the many who reject the Bible and Jesus, having heard but turning aside from Him. That is a completely different side of this story. I'm only speaking of those who fall in the cracks. Will God condemn those who don't have the Word but love to sin. Yes, because God is just in condemning these but not condemning the few who never hear yet want to live right. Does the Bible teach NT salvation is for those who place their faith in the shed blood of Jesus and are born again by water and Spirit? Yes, that is the only Gospel message that the Church is commissioned to preach. But God will not condemn those who attempt to live right who haven't ever heard the Gospel. That would not describe Paul's God as a just God. Let me repeat I'm speaking of those who fall through the cracks.

Do you not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?

Genesis 6:3 (KJV) And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man,

Why do you think the Spirit strives with men? What do you think He is trying to do?

Psalms 53:2 (KJV) God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were [any] that did understand, that did seek God.

And also

Romans 1:20-21 (KJV) 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

The Spirit of God strives with men trying to moving them to seek the Creator of heaven and earth, but they tend to refuse to respond to the call.

If someone seeks the Creator of heaven and earth, He will find a way to reveal Himself to them, whether sending a preacher or leading the person to a preacher or Bible or something. Before Christ, they would have had a revelation of the Most High God, in one way or the other.
Haven’t you seen example of that in the Scriptures?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Don, don’t use green font.

It doesn’t show up well.

[Evang.Benincasa]

“Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.”

[donfriesen1]

Originally Posted by coksiw

The whole thing about “there is no law” that Paul was referring to,
It begs the question: what is the law?

Is it just the “thou shalt not”? No, it is is a whole system of instructions with rewards (blessings) and punishments (curses) for obedience or disobedience. It is a covenant!!

Agreed.

There “there is no law” doesn’t mean they don’t know right from wrong, but that there is no a covenant which includes punishments they are subject to, yet will be judged by God anyway because they ARE aware of wrong doing.

Agreed, knowledgeable of sin by conscience and intellectual reasoning telling of right and wrong. Cain responded to the judgment God pronounced on him by saying 'Everyone is going to kill me'. Where did this idea come from? Why would he think others would think this way, when his was the first murder? Not from history or any spoken law of God but from his intellect. The carnal human nature he possessed says to a man 'get even' when wronged. He understood his own nature and knew that the others would think the same. His intellect revealed a law for the carnal actors which later was revealed in the law of Moses. An eye for an eye. God revealed his ways, mercy, and said 'I'll put a mark on you to get the others not to kill you.

But those who have consciences which tell them to avoid sin describe themselves as someone who has had a change of heart, having faith, and wanting to do that which is right, even though they may not have the Word/covenant whcih details what right and wrong is. These are the ones Paul describes as showing the work of the law while not having the law in Ro2. Their conscience-knowledge leads them to the same place a Word/covenant knowledge would lead -- living right -- which is one of the purposes of the law/covenant or of any covenant.


Adam sinned in a very significant way, by disobeying a direct commandment of God that came from his audible voice. Many sinners after him did wrong knowingly from their understanding of good and evil, but it wasn’t in disobedience to God’s audible instructions. Agreed.You would need to read more Bible to understand the severity of the situation.


Anyways, then, if they know sin know sin by the conscience, I assume tothink you mean to say, why do Noah, Abraham, and later, the children of Israel, needed instructions about how to live, that came as a covenant?

The reason I've come to, to answer your question, is what is in Man's weakness. Whether it is Conscience or law or NT new birth, Man is weak. What ever the system, what God provides is good (we have to confess that the omniscience of God would bring the best for any time) Man is weak and Man fails. The system provided during the Age of Conscience, a time without law, was the best God wanted to bring then but it was Man-weak and failed. God then brought the best he could, the law of Moses, and it also proved to be Man-weak. God then provided the Gospel and the New Birth. Man is still weak. I see a gradual degradation in human nature after the Fall, over time resulting in a gradual increasing of God's counter-provision, to compensate for the degradation. But, obviously only one weak, fallible man's opinion on a huge, huge subject -- life.

[donfriesen1]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Don, those who “fall through the cracks” are the ones who strolled down the BROAD WAY and entered through the WIDE GATE.

This is your opinion and Paul's is shown in Ro2.12-16. Scripture shows us that the conscience will be consulted by the Lord on the day of Judgment. If you say the Gospel is the only deciding factor, then explain why the conscience is given any consideration at all on Judgment day. What is your answer to this question? Consciences are highly undefined to us humans but not to the Lord's omniscient understanding. They are given by him as relevant enough to use on the day of Judgment. They are given for a purpose by him, though our understanding of their workings are limited.

Please by all means, explain what Jesus meant when He said “ Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and FEW there be that find it.”

What was the Lord's motivation behind his words 'strait is the gate, narrow is the way'? It presupposes many things. Among them: 1. someone has built a community. 2. there are roads to travel. Thus the Lord indicates people travelling between destinations. He indicates that in peoples choices of roads that there are many but the best way for anyone travelling to the right destination is a narrow way, only one way, which is God's way. For those to travel to God's place is to find God's narrow way. But because I'm somewhat impish, and not always completely serious, I'll say that the broadway to destruction is to follow the broadway of the many who post on this thread. And the narrow way is to follow the way that Paul points to in Ro2.12-16 or perhaps Don's narrow way. But I jest.

Jesting aside, the broadway is based on man's opinion of a way which is outside of the way that God reveals. Man must control their intellectual abilities and reasoning to choose the way the highest intellect has provided. That way is the Gospel. But I'll repeat what I've continued to say on this thread. Paul speaks of in Ro2.12-16, about those who have never heard the Gospel, who follow the God-given conscience. Plz allow the God-given conscience to do the work God intended for these who have never heard. The conscience is a God-given pathway which leads to... where would someone who listens to their God-given conscience end up? Hell? God's perfect will is that all should hear the Gospel but not all will hear, and not all will find the narrow way he has provided because some fall through the cracks.

Its comforting to think that, hypothetically, that God will find a way to reach every last person with the full Gospel, like he did with Cornelius. But the real world we live in may not line up with the hypothetical and there will be some who fall through the cracks which God will not want to send to hell, bringing them into heaven by the merits of their conscience. If you want to call this salvation by good works that is your privilege, but not my definition to use. They operate the God-given faculties given them in the limited ways outside of covenantal means. Does God want every last soul to be saved and born agin. Yes but his perfect will not be achieved. Does God want everyone in heaven to be born again? Yes but the human element may frustrate God's perfect desires, compelling him to provide ways which are within the guides of his justice and holiness but not within the covenantal desires he wishes all would have.

I've answered your question, perhaps it was a direct answer, but please answer for me the question I don't get much response from anyone. Re: Acts 10.2 a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, who gave alms generously to the people, and prayed to God always. Would Cornelius have been considered righteous enough to enter heaven had he died before he met Peter and before being born again? Or would he have gone to hell? Esaias answer,post 71, was so skimpy that it didn't rate as an answer. Would a just God have sent this righteous man to hell? Plz, a direct answer. Not many dare to give a direct answer. Will you? We'll wait to see whether this conflicts with your theology or not.