Sabbath and bible feasts

[diakonos]

Would driving 2 hours to a church on Saturday be considered work?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968

I'm studying both sides of the argument of traditional Sabbath Keeping or a Modern Sabbath Keeping. As you obviously hold the belief of the Traditional Sabbath Keeper, Im interested in knowing, what is your understanding what "work" is considered sabbath breaking?

Let me explain a little further, we read in the Exodus 16 about how they were to say home, and as you explained was based on the reason on not to gather manna on the Sabbath. Yet, like in the highlighted section, it gives us an insight as to what the Lord considered to be work. Just simply picking up enough manna for the size of family you had was considered work.

With that in mind, in our modern time, what is work? To the extent of breaking the Sabbath.

Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
(Exo 20:8-11)

Your ordinary labor, for one thing. The thing a man does to earn a living, or the management of cattle, crops, a business, etc. Also, since the whole family as well as servants are included in the command, the regular household chores are also included.

If a person's occupation includes being a student, then it would make sense that one's studies, assignments, etc would be included as "work".

If a person were for example a musician, then practicing one's scales or trying to learn a new song or doing "exercises" would probably be included. I wouldn't however think that just playing a song would be considered "work".

And it came to pass, that on the sixth day they gathered twice as much bread, two omers for one man: and all the rulers of the congregation came and told Moses. And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.
(Exo 16:22-23)

From this we see a principle of preparing one's meals for the Sabbath on the day before, so as to avoid having to do a bunch of kitchen work on the Sabbath. (Hence, the day before the Sabbath is often called "the Preparation" - see Mark 15:42 for example.)

Now, it is obvious that the Bible does not give a detailed list of every single activity that is prohibited or allowed on the Sabbath, and indeed we should not expect such as the possibilities are essentially endless. But what we do see is a general prohibition of "work" (labor, deputyship, business). So what about specific situations that might not be so clear?

And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation. And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him. And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp. And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.
(Num 15:32-36)

Here the people didn't quite know what to do, so they took the matter to the LORD. This is essentially the same thing we see in Acts 15: there was a dispute that the congregation wasn't clear on, so they had a prayer meeting and prayerfully discussed the issue and finally came to a conclusion. This is what "theocratic church government" looks like and is the way the church is supposed to handle disputes, much like what was established in the wilderness:

Hearken now unto my voice, I will give thee counsel, and God shall be with thee: Be thou for the people to God-ward, that thou mayest bring the causes unto God: And thou shalt teach them ordinances and laws, and shalt shew them the way wherein they must walk, and the work that they must do. Moreover thou shalt provide out of all the people able men, such as fear God, men of truth, hating covetousness; and place such over them, to be rulers of thousands, and rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties, and rulers of tens: And let them judge the people at all seasons: and it shall be, that every great matter they shall bring unto thee, but every small matter they shall judge: so shall it be easier for thyself, and they shall bear the burden with thee. If thou shalt do this thing, and God command thee so, then thou shalt be able to endure, and all this people shall also go to their place in peace. So Moses hearkened to the voice of his father in law, and did all that he had said. And Moses chose able men out of all Israel, and made them heads over the people, rulers of thousands, rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties, and rulers of tens. And they judged the people at all seasons: the hard causes they brought unto Moses, but every small matter they judged themselves.
(Exo 18:19-26)

This was further established as part of the Law:

Judges and officers shalt thou make thee in all thy gates, which the LORD thy God giveth thee, throughout thy tribes: and they shall judge the people with just judgment. Thou shalt not wrest judgment; thou shalt not respect persons, neither take a gift: for a gift doth blind the eyes of the wise, and pervert the words of the righteous. That which is altogether just shalt thou follow, that thou mayest live, and inherit the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
(Deu 16:18-20)

If there arise a matter too hard for thee in judgment, between blood and blood, between plea and plea, and between stroke and stroke, being matters of controversy within thy gates: then shalt thou arise, and get thee up into the place which the LORD thy God shall choose; And thou shalt come unto the priests the Levites, and unto the judge that shall be in those days, and enquire; and they shall shew thee the sentence of judgment: And thou shalt do according to the sentence, which they of that place which the LORD shall choose shall shew thee; and thou shalt observe to do according to all that they inform thee: According to the sentence of the law which they shall teach thee, and according to the judgment which they shall tell thee, thou shalt do: thou shalt not decline from the sentence which they shall shew thee, to the right hand, nor to the left. And the man that will do presumptuously, and will not hearken unto the priest that standeth to minister there before the LORD thy God, or unto the judge, even that man shall die: and thou shalt put away the evil from Israel. And all the people shall hear, and fear, and do no more presumptuously.
(Deu 17:8-13)

Here we see the establishment of a judicial system which allowed for judicial oversight and interpretation to apply the Law of God to situations not specifically spelled out in the Law code. In other words, the congregation would establish an understanding of the situation and an acceptable application of the Law to the situation. Again, this is what we see in Acts 15, and is what Jesus is referring to here especially the bolded part:

Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
(Mat 18:15-20)

The judicial power was given to the church via the apostles and elders, and their decisions are generally speaking binding. That is, a church may not enact a rule or custom or decision that is contrary to the Word, of course, but when the church is in the will of God and seeks the guidance of the Spirit then the church will make the right decisions.

So in other words, if there is an issue that cannot be resolved individually, then the church must needs come together and hear all the sides, and go to God in prayer to discern the will of God on the matter.

As for "modern times" I am not sure that really makes much of a difference. Work is generally work, is it not? Whether one works in the fields raising sheep and goats or whether one works for Microsoft in a cubicle in an office building staring at a computer screen.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by diakonos

Would driving 2 hours to a church on Saturday be considered work?

Well that's quite a drive! Pray about it.

Just make sure you don't have to buy gas during the journey.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by Esaias

The law doesn't make anyone a sinner. Does the law prohibiting theft make you a thief? Of course not, your own thieving makes you a thief.

Herein lies the crux of the matter.

James 2:10
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

We are violators of the law and no matter how hard you try you will never live up to that standard. The flesh is weak and although we are to be filled with the Holy Ghost, we still are flesh.

That's because you are under conviction and are looking for a way out. The only way out though is REPENTANCE.

Yes, I am often under conviction and I do often repent. Funny thing is it has never been over Saturday vs Sunday worship. I am usually convicted over things that I have said or maybe I didn't say something when I knew I should. I sometimes get angry and overreact or sometimes I may be selfish about something. These are some examples of the things I feel conviction about.

Except those Scriptures that interfere with your traditions, amen?

No, not really. Just not a part of the Jews religion.

Yes, like these:

2 Timothy 3:15-17 KJV
And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. [16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: [17] That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Yes, the law is given for those things. The foundation of the laws given at Sinai is still relevant, but the application has changed entirely. We are not Jews under Moses law.

Acts 3:22
For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

I am a follower of Jesus and not Moses.

1 John 3:4-10 KJV
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. [5] And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. [6] Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. [7] Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. [8] He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. [9] Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. [10] In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

This doesn't not mean literal observance of the Old Testament Covenant.

Romans 7:6
But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Romans 6:1-2 KJV
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? [2] God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Sin exist without the law of Moses.

Romans 6:14-18 KJV
For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. [15] What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. [16] Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? [17] But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. [18] Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Yet not one NT reference to committing sin for Sabbath observance mentioned by the apostles, but the pharisseses frequently used that accusation against Christ. Ironic?

The apostles did teach this:

Romans 14:13
Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

Romans 8:1-7 KJV
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. [2] For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. [3] For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: [4] That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. [5] For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. [6] For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. [7] Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Thank God we are made free!!! No more shackles, no more chains, no more bondage, I am free.

Matthew 19:16-17 KJV
And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? [17] And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

What lack I yet. As a Jew it was necessary to keep the law of Moses, but Jesus law went beyond, go and sell all and give to the poor.

Matthew 4:4 KJV
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Yes, but the implications of this go farther than just the written word.

Revelation 12:17 KJV
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

This was not speaking about People following the law of Moses. This is the church, who have the testimony of Jesus Christ and are following Christs teaching.

Every Word of God is applicable and relevant to us within its own context and the larger context of the entirety of Scripture. It is YOU that are wholly inconsistent because you cherry pick what you think is applicable and which is not based solely on your traditions and personal preferences. For example, you believe the Second Commandment applies, but not the Fourth. You believe Deut 22:5 applies, but not Deut 22:8. You like Lev 19:17-18, but not Lev 19:19. You like Lev 19:26, but not Lev 19:27. And so on and so forth.

I think all those scriptures are relevant and for instruction. As I have said in another post, I dont think we are in sin, for example: not putting a railing around the roof of our houses. We don't have to live our lives in fear, hoping that we have the exact application down of obeying laws and ordinances. What if I don't have the right time of evening when Sabbath begins? All I see for your interpretation is stumbling blocks.

Tithing isn't a false doctrine. Rather the idea that everyone needs to pay the pastor (or the 501c3 corporation calling itself a "church") 10% of their gross wages from whatever source derived in cash, check, or credit card, usually with a corresponding tax deduction from the government, IS a false doctrine, because it is CONTRARY TO THE LAW OF GOD.

This is true.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

Yet not one NT reference to committing sin for Sabbath observance mentioned by the apostles, but the pharisseses frequently used that accusation against Christ. Ironic?

Are you still hiding behind this old canard? Guess what? There is not one NT reference to committing the sins of cross-dressing or bestiality. Well, how about that? Does that mean such things are now permissible? According to your "logic", YES.

The Pharisees accused Christ's disciples of breaking the Sabbath, and the accusation was FALSE.

You know, at some point, you really just have to realise that all these supposed objections to obeying God are really just empty excuses that don't even make any sense.

"I don't follow Moses, I follow Christ"? Actually, NO:

And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
(Luk 16:31)

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Are you still hiding behind this old canard? Guess what? There is not one NT reference to committing the sins of cross-dressing or bestiality. Well, how about that? Does that mean such things are now permissible? According to your "logic", YES

. Wrong, there are several scriptures in the NT about how men and women should dress and behave. This is supported by OT teaching, and a multitude of NT scripture about sexual sin:

Lemma:
πορνεία

Transliteration:
porneia

Pronunciation:
por-ni'-ah

Part of Speech:
Noun Feminine

Root Word (Etymology):
From πορνεύω G4203

Thayer Lexicon:
1. illicit sexual intercourse
a. adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc.
b. sexual intercourse with close relatives; Lev.


If a brother dies and leaves his wife without children, is his brother still obligated to marry her to give seed to his brother? Polygamy would not be only acceptable, but required in some instances.

The Pharisees accused Christ's disciples of breaking the Sabbath, and the accusation was FALSE.

I didn’t say they where true claims. I was just demonstrating the commonality Sabbath teachers have with the Pharisees. Sabbath observance on AFF evidently is a high profile commandment.

You know, at some point, you really just have to realise that all these supposed objections to obeying God are really just empty excuses that don't even make any sense.

"I don't follow Moses, I follow Christ"? Actually, NO:

And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
(Luk 16:31)

I have thought the same thing about many of your posts.

[mfblume]

My newest book entitled, The Expiration of Sabbaths, Feast Days, & Holy Times.

https://www.amazon.com/Days-Months-Y...YZ/ref=sr_1_13


The controversy of the place that Law and Old Covenant legalities hold in the New Covenant has never exhausted itself since the days of the Apostles. Those who keep the Law as well as though who feel it is expired, without granting license to sin, are both sincere and want to please God Almighty in every way in which they can. This volume takes a deeply contextual approach without the stains of the traditions of men to properly understand the overall issue. Arguments for keeping feast days and Sabbaths are addressed and answered with great detail. Heavy emphasis is put on the context of Galatians chapters 3 through 4 to show that the elements of the world in Chapter 4 are indeed the schoolmastery of Law from Chapter 3 under which Israel was bound until the Lord Jesus Christ would come into the world with the New Covenant. Indeed, Law genders to bondage.

Blessings!