Kingdom, Millennium, and the Reign of the Saints

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by jediwill83

If its true that we are currently ruling and reigning with Him and that our faithfulness and aptitude is being evaluated...being in debt would be a rookie mistake....if we cannot wield something that only reflects the will of its user...completely neutral...neither good nor evil...how can we lead people much less rule over them?

The test, I believe, is how we handle our current situation, not so much what our current situation is. So, having debt is one thing. What we do with that is key, however.

There are some situations where going into or taking on a debt is a wise thing. Although most debt is likely unnecessary and a hindrance.

[Amanah]

Bro Esaias,

Would you teach a little on what arguments people use to teach that people are going to heaven rather than that the Kingdom of Heaven is and will continue to be on earth and how you refute them.

Such as Enoch, Elijah, the transfiguration, the cloud of witnesses, ect.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Amanah

Bro Esaias,

Would you teach a little on what arguments people use to teach that people are going to heaven rather than that the Kingdom of Heaven is and will continue to be on earth and how you refute them.

Such as Enoch, Elijah, the transfiguration, the cloud of witnesses, ect.

What is the soul of a man?

Genesis 2:7 KJV
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

You are a soul. Your soul is your life, your "being a living creature". It is not some part that floats away to the ethereal realm like all pagans believed.

Genesis 3:4 KJV
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

The Lie of the Serpent is that you will not surely die. All pagan religions comes from that source, and that lie. Thus all pagan religions teach natural immortality. They teach you leave your body and go somewhere, for good or ill, as a ghost or disembodied person (even though you still have a non-material body of sorts, but most don't think through the contradictions there far enough to see the errors).

What happens when a person dies? Do they continue as before, just in a new form and a new place? Are they aware of what's going on? What are they doing and thinking?

Isaiah 38:18 KJV
For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.

Psalm 146:3-4 KJV
Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. [4] His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Ecclesiastes 9:10 KJV
Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Psalm 30:9 KJV
What profit is there in my blood, when I go down to the pit? Shall the dust praise thee? shall it declare thy truth?

Psalm 88:10-12 KJV
Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah. [11] Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction? [12] Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?

(Notice, in that last passage, the dead praising God presupposes they must arise, that is, resurrect.)

Psalm 6:4-5 KJV
Return, O Lord, deliver my soul: oh save me for thy mercies' sake. [5] For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

According to the Bible, there is no activity nor awareness or consciousness in death. This is why death is likened to sleep:

Job 14:10-15 KJV
But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he? [11] As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up: [12] So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. [13] O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! [14] If a man die, shall he live again ? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come. [15] Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.

Death is not the end, because there will be a resurrection. As a man lies down and goes to sleep and is inactive and oblivious until he awakens the next day, so humans lie down in death and are inactive and oblivious until they are awakened by Christ at the resurrection:

John 5:28-29 KJV
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, [29] And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

A person is a uniting of breath of life (ruach, pneuma, SPIRIT) and flesh, resulting in a living soul, a living creature.

Psalm 104:27-30 KJV
These wait all upon thee; that thou mayest give them their meat in due season. [28] That thou givest them they gather: thou openest thine hand, they are filled with good. [29] Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust. [30] Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.

Ecclesiastes 3:19-20 KJV
For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. [20] All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

But the difference between man and beast is this: man, being made in the image of God, has a different fate:

Ecclesiastes 3:21 KJV
Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

Ecclesiastes 12:7 KJV
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

When a person dies, they cease to be a living soul. They are DEAD, not alive. The flesh returns to the earth, and the spirit returns to God. The person is said to be asleep, without conscious awareness, awaiting the resurrection (a reuniting of the person's flesh and spirit so that they live again).

The Bible everywhere presents resurrection as the hoped for destiny of man, not "going to heaven at death". The Bible everywhere presents man as truly mortal, not "really immortal" as pagans and catholic "Christians" believe.

Hebrews 11:5 KJV
By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

And yet Enoch eventually died:

Hebrews 11:13 KJV
These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Enoch did not go up to heaven:

John 3:13 KJV
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

The same applies to Elijah. Here's what happened AFTER he was caught up by a tornado:

2 Chronicles 21:12 KJV
And there came a writing to him from Elijah the prophet, saying, Thus saith the Lord God of David thy father, Because thou hast not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat thy father, nor in the ways of Asa king of Judah,

He wasn't caught up and transformed and been sitting up in heaven all this time.

The Transfiguration was a vision of future glorification:

Matthew 17:9 KJV
And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

Resurrection is the endgame, and the earth is where it happens:

2 Chronicles 6:18 KJV
But will God in very deed dwell with men on the earth? behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house which I have built!

Will He? Indeed He will:

Revelation 21:2-3 KJV
And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. [3] And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Just not in some building made with hands.

Psalm 115:16 KJV
The heaven, even the heavens, are the Lord's : but the earth hath he given to the children of men.

Acts 17:26 KJV
And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

The earth has always been our home. And it shall be our home in the future:

Psalm 37:11 KJV
But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

Matthew 5:5 KJV
Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

Romans 4:13 KJV
For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Psalm 25:12-13 KJV
What man is he that feareth the Lord ? him shall he teach in the way that he shall choose. [13] His soul shall dwell at ease; and his seed shall inherit the earth.

Psalm 82:8 KJV
Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

Psalm 2:7-8 KJV
I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. [8] Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

Jeremiah 23:5 KJV
Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.

Revelation 5:9-10 KJV
And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; [10] And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Daniel 7:27 KJV
And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

The wicked will be destroyed at the judgment and will be no more:

Revelation 20:11-15 KJV
And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. [12] And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. [13] And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. [14] And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. [15] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Psalm 37:9-11 KJV
For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the Lord, they shall inherit the earth. [10] For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be : yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be. [11] But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

Psalm 37:20 KJV
But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

Psalm 37:22 KJV
For such as be blessed of him shall inherit the earth; and they that be cursed of him shall be cut off.

Psalm 37:28-29 KJV
For the Lord loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off. [29] The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever.

Psalm 37:34 KJV
Wait on the Lord, and keep his way, and he shall exalt thee to inherit the land: when the wicked are cut off, thou shalt see it.

Psalm 37:37-38 KJV
Mark the perfect man, and behold the upright: for the end of that man is peace. [38] But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off.

Malachi 4:2-3 KJV
But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. [3] And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.

[Esaias]

If the saints shall inherit the earth, and if the saints shall be immortal, then the saints shall inherit the earth as part of their immortal and eternal possession.

If the goal is to "make it to heaven" then resurrection would be a move backwards from that "Beatific" state. What would be the point, and who would even want it?

[diakonos]

Originally Posted by Esaias

If the saints shall inherit the earth, and if the saints shall be immortal, then the saints shall inherit the earth as part of their immortal and eternal possession.

If the goal is to "make it to heaven" then resurrection would be a move backwards from that "Beatific" state. What would be the point, and who would even want it?

I never understood why people in heaven would get their bodies back at the rapture. Just odd.

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by Esaias

If the saints shall inherit the earth, and if the saints shall be immortal, then the saints shall inherit the earth as part of their immortal and eternal possession.

If the goal is to "make it to heaven" then resurrection would be a move backwards from that "Beatific" state. What would be the point, and who would even want it?

Thank you!

[shag]

Originally Posted by Esaias

What is the soul of a man?

Genesis 2:7 KJV
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

You are a soul. Your soul is your life, your "being a living creature". It is not some part that floats away to the ethereal realm like all pagans believed.

Genesis 3:4 KJV
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

The Lie of the Serpent is that you will not surely die. All pagan religions comes from that source, and that lie. Thus all pagan religions teach natural immortality. They teach you leave your body and go somewhere, for good or ill, as a ghost or disembodied person (even though you still have a non-material body of sorts, but most don't think through the contradictions there far enough to see the errors).

What happens when a person dies? Do they continue as before, just in a new form and a new place? Are they aware of what's going on? What are they doing and thinking?

Isaiah 38:18 KJV
For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.

Psalm 146:3-4 KJV
Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. [4] His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Ecclesiastes 9:10 KJV
Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Psalm 30:9 KJV
What profit is there in my blood, when I go down to the pit? Shall the dust praise thee? shall it declare thy truth?

Psalm 88:10-12 KJV
Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah. [11] Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction? [12] Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?

(Notice, in that last passage, the dead praising God presupposes they must arise, that is, resurrect.)

Psalm 6:4-5 KJV
Return, O Lord, deliver my soul: oh save me for thy mercies' sake. [5] For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

According to the Bible, there is no activity nor awareness or consciousness in death. This is why death is likened to sleep:

Job 14:10-15 KJV
But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he? [11] As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up: [12] So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. [13] O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! [14] If a man die, shall he live again ? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come. [15] Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.

Death is not the end, because there will be a resurrection. As a man lies down and goes to sleep and is inactive and oblivious until he awakens the next day, so humans lie down in death and are inactive and oblivious until they are awakened by Christ at the resurrection:

John 5:28-29 KJV
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, [29] And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

A person is a uniting of breath of life (ruach, pneuma, SPIRIT) and flesh, resulting in a living soul, a living creature.

Psalm 104:27-30 KJV
These wait all upon thee; that thou mayest give them their meat in due season. [28] That thou givest them they gather: thou openest thine hand, they are filled with good. [29] Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust. [30] Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.

Ecclesiastes 3:19-20 KJV
For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. [20] All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

But the difference between man and beast is this: man, being made in the image of God, has a different fate:

Ecclesiastes 3:21 KJV
Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

Ecclesiastes 12:7 KJV
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

When a person dies, they cease to be a living soul. They are DEAD, not alive. The flesh returns to the earth, and the spirit returns to God. The person is said to be asleep, without conscious awareness, awaiting the resurrection (a reuniting of the person's flesh and spirit so that they live again).

The Bible everywhere presents resurrection as the hoped for destiny of man, not "going to heaven at death". The Bible everywhere presents man as truly mortal, not "really immortal" as pagans and catholic "Christians" believe.

Hebrews 11:5 KJV
By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

And yet Enoch eventually died:

Hebrews 11:13 KJV
These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Enoch did not go up to heaven:

John 3:13 KJV
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

The same applies to Elijah. Here's what happened AFTER he was caught up by a tornado:

2 Chronicles 21:12 KJV
And there came a writing to him from Elijah the prophet, saying, Thus saith the Lord God of David thy father, Because thou hast not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat thy father, nor in the ways of Asa king of Judah,

He wasn't caught up and transformed and been sitting up in heaven all this time.

The Transfiguration was a vision of future glorification:

Matthew 17:9 KJV
And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

Resurrection is the endgame, and the earth is where it happens:

2 Chronicles 6:18 KJV
But will God in very deed dwell with men on the earth? behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house which I have built!

Will He? Indeed He will:

Revelation 21:2-3 KJV
And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. [3] And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Just not in some building made with hands.

Psalm 115:16 KJV
The heaven, even the heavens, are the Lord's : but the earth hath he given to the children of men.

Acts 17:26 KJV
And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

The earth has always been our home. And it shall be our home in the future:

Psalm 37:11 KJV
But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

Matthew 5:5 KJV
Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

Romans 4:13 KJV
For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Psalm 25:12-13 KJV
What man is he that feareth the Lord ? him shall he teach in the way that he shall choose. [13] His soul shall dwell at ease; and his seed shall inherit the earth.

Psalm 82:8 KJV
Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

Psalm 2:7-8 KJV
I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. [8] Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

Jeremiah 23:5 KJV
Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.

Revelation 5:9-10 KJV
And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; [10] And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Daniel 7:27 KJV
And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

The wicked will be destroyed at the judgment and will be no more:

Revelation 20:11-15 KJV
And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. [12] And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. [13] And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. [14] And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. [15] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Psalm 37:9-11 KJV
For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the Lord, they shall inherit the earth. [10] For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be : yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be. [11] But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

Psalm 37:20 KJV
But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

Psalm 37:22 KJV
For such as be blessed of him shall inherit the earth; and they that be cursed of him shall be cut off.

Psalm 37:28-29 KJV
For the Lord loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off. [29] The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever.

Psalm 37:34 KJV
Wait on the Lord, and keep his way, and he shall exalt thee to inherit the land: when the wicked are cut off, thou shalt see it.

Psalm 37:37-38 KJV
Mark the perfect man, and behold the upright: for the end of that man is peace. [38] But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off.

Malachi 4:2-3 KJV
But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. [3] And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.

Good stuff Esaias
What is the meaning of “translated”?
(Specifically as it relates to Enoch)

[coksiw]

I actually believe that there is a soul that departs from the body and comes to a place awaiting resurrection, in Christ, or in some sort of prison people call today "hell".

I also believe and contend in my preachings that we are meant to be risen and inherit the earth, so I agree 100% with Esaias. God's plan is not for us to living in "heaven" forever more, while the earth is given to the wicked forever. Yet, I find no conflict between the believes of righteous inheriting the earth and departed souls ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


I personally believe that when the saints raise, the departed souls period will feel like a beautiful dream in their memories. You have to trust God with the details . "For this is our God for ever and ever: he will be our guide for evermore."



Now, the thing about Elijah writing a letter after being lifted is quite interesting

[shag]

Originally Posted by coksiw

I actually believe that there is a soul that departs from the body and comes to a place awaiting resurrection, in Christ, or in some sort of prison people call today "hell".

I also believe and contend in my preachings that we are meant to be risen and inherit the earth, so I agree 100% with Esaias. God's plan is not for us to living in "heaven" forever more, while the earth is given to the wicked forever. Yet, I find no conflict between the believes of righteous inheriting the earth and departed souls ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


I personally believe that when the saints raise, the departed souls period will feel like a beautiful dream in their memories. You have to trust God with the details . "For this is our God for ever and ever: he will be our guide for evermore."



Now, the thing about Elijah writing a letter after being lifted is quite interesting

IYO, how long as this been going on? - how long have these souls been waiting?

I’m thinking that thousands of Christian souls to be consciously waiting somewhere for like 2000 years or more, would be an INCREDIBLY long time.

Now if they were sleeping, that’d be a different story

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by shag

Good stuff Esaias
What is the meaning of “translated”?
(Specifically as it relates to Enoch)

The word is "metatithemi" which means to be moved from one place to another or transferred. So God took him from wherever he was to some other place:

Genesis 5:21-24 KJV
And Enoch lived sixty and five years, and begat Methuselah: [22] And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters: [23] And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years: [24] And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

"All the days of Enoch were 365 years", not 3365 and counting.

He "was not":

Genesis 42:13 KJV
And they said, Thy servants are twelve brethren, the sons of one man in the land of Canaan; and, behold, the youngest is this day with our father, and one is not.

(They believed Joseph was dead, not missing or up in heaven.)

Matthew 2:18 KJV
In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not.

(The Holy Innocents were dead, not missing or up in heaven.)

Isaiah 57:1 KJV
The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are taken away, none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil to come.

Enoch was taken by God so he didn't suffer an evil fate. But he did not go up alive to heaven to never die. If that were the case, he shouldn't be in Hebrews 11, because the whole point of the apostle is all these OT saintly examples of faith DIED WITHOUT RECEIVING THE PROMISES that are found in Christ. If Enoch never died and was made immortal then he certainly DID receive, more than anyone else since.