An Exhortation

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God…And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.”

The Logos was always Jesus Christ, God Almighty.

He kept His name a secret until the fullness of time.

Manoah asked His name. He said, “Why are you asking after my name seeing that it is secret/remarkable/wonderful?” Judges 13:18; Isaiah 9:6

Jacob asked God His name after wrestling with Him. He knew it was God because he wanted to be blessed by Him. Genesis 32:26;29

God is who He is. His name has always been Jesus, waiting to be revealed.

Let me add that He has always been and always will be the Mighty God in Christ.
And we can read a million books and quote a million author’s words. However, unless we have spent time with Him alone, we will never really know Him. He reveals Himself to us through His Word.

Respectfully, I disagree. I know this is a hallmark teaching among many of my Oneness brethren and it affects their view of Matthew 28:19. But I simply do not see this in scripture. God's revealed name is what we pronounce in English as "Jehovah." The name "Jesus" means "Jehovah-Savior." When God was manifest in flesh through his Son, it was pronounced that that Son's name would be "Jesus" because "he will save his people from their sins." So, in a sense, Jehovah simply enhanced his own name when he was manifest through his beloved Son, adding the phrase "Savior." Nothing hidden. But something added.

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by Originalist

Respectfully, I disagree. I know this is a hallmark teaching among many of my Oneness brethren and it affects their view of Matthew 28:19. But I simply do not see this in scripture. God's revealed name is what we pronounce in English as "Jehovah." The name "Jesus" means "Jehovah-Savior." When God was manifest in flesh through his Son, it was pronounced that that Son's name would be "Jesus" because "he will save his people from their sins." So, in a sense, Jehovah simply enhanced his own name when he was manifest through his beloved Son, adding the phrase "Savior." Nothing hidden. But something added.

I agree

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Originalist

Respectfully, I disagree. I know this is a hallmark teaching among many of my Oneness brethren and it affects their view of Matthew 28:19. But I simply do not see this in scripture. God's revealed name is what we pronounce in English as "Jehovah." The name "Jesus" means "Jehovah-Savior." When God was manifest in flesh through his Son, it was pronounced that that Son's name would be "Jesus" because "he will save his people from their sins." So, in a sense, Jehovah simply enhanced his own name when he was manifest through his beloved Son, adding the phrase "Savior." Nothing hidden. But something added.

Jehovah was formed by adding the vowels of the Hebrew word Adonai to the consonants of the Hebrew, YHWH. Out of respect for God and their fear of defiling His name, the Jews refused to pronounce the divine name when reading scriptures. Instead they substituted Adonai, meaning “my Lord”.

Prior to 6th Century AD, the Hebrew text had no vowels. When vowel points were added to the texts (AD 600-700), the vowels of Adonai were placed below the consonants of YHWH to indicate Adonai should be read.

Some have thought that around AD1520 Petrus Galatinus thought of the idea of combining the two names, creating YeHoWaH. This is where the English get Jehovah. It was foreign in the Hebrew language.

That is probably why in a few translations, i.e., KJV, Aramaic Bible and American Standard, they use Jehovah.

The NKJ and others would read:

“Behold, God (el) is my salvation (yeshuah), I will trust and not be afraid; ‘For YAH, the LORD (Yah), is my strength and song; He also has become my salvation (yeshuah) .’ ” Isaiah 12:2

Jesus (Iesous) comes from the Hebrew (yehoshua)

Behold, God is my Jesus, I will trust and not be afraid; ‘For Yah, the Yah, is my strength and my song; He also has become my Jesus.”

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Can God still be Everlasting Father before the creation (or rather, begetting) of the Son? Said another way, if there is no Son, can there be Father?

Nevertheless, the Scriptures never use the phrase Eternal Son. That is a fundamentally extra-Biblical, Trinitarian idea.



The Logos was made flesh and dwelt among us, and that is Jesus of Nazareth. Before that fulness of time (see Galatians 4:4), was the Logos Jesus of Nazareth? I do not think so. The Logos was the Logos. Jesus of Nazareth is the name of the human man the Logos became when It was made flesh and dwelt among us. Prior to that Incarnation, it would seem to me, and I could be wrong here, if we must apply a name to the Logos, the Tetragrammaton (YHVH/YHWH) would be perfectly suitable, and Biblical.

Years ago I began to suspect something. I saw the early proto trinitarian evolution away from strict monotheism to full blown trinitarianism, and I kept noticing certain parallels in the evolution of Oneness teachers over the decades. I think I see what happened:

Paul (and others) refer to Christ as pre existing as God. I believe he and they were saying that "He Who you knew as 'God' is He Who manifested Himself among us in the person known as Jesus the Messiah." But some folks took the apostolic statements to mean the individual person (in the common sense of the term) known as Jesus was pre existing AS Jesus prior to the virgin birth. Thus many Oneness people use "Jesus" as the name of God irregardless of any reference to the incarnation. Over time this - combined with certain mistakes concerning the nature and origin of the Logos - ultimately evolve into a "Second pre existing Divine Person".

In other words, I think some in the Oneness camp are (albeit unawares and unintentionally) drifting into a proto trinitarian view. History seems to be repeating itself. It takes several generations (a couple hundred years) but I can see the trajectory paralleling the early trinitarian evolution.

[Esaias]

Proverbs 30:4 KJV
Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Years ago I began to suspect something. I saw the early proto trinitarian evolution away from strict monotheism to full blown trinitarianism, and I kept noticing certain parallels in the evolution of Oneness teachers over the decades. I think I see what happened:

Paul (and others) refer to Christ as pre existing as God. I believe he and they were saying that "He Who you knew as 'God' is He Who manifested Himself among us in the person known as Jesus the Messiah." But some folks took the apostolic statements to mean the individual person (in the common sense of the term) known as Jesus was pre existing AS Jesus prior to the virgin birth. Thus many Oneness people use "Jesus" as the name of God irregardless of any reference to the incarnation. Over time this - combined with certain mistakes concerning the nature and origin of the Logos - ultimately evolve into a "Second pre existing Divine Person".

In other words, I think some in the Oneness camp are (albeit unawares and unintentionally) drifting into a proto trinitarian view. History seems to be repeating itself. It takes several generations (a couple hundred years) but I can see the trajectory paralleling the early trinitarian evolution.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Proverbs 30:4 KJV
Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?

The writer is simply saying, "If you know somebody who can do what God can do, then tell me his name and his son's name."

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Originalist

The writer is simply saying, "If you know somebody who can do what God can do, then tell me his name and his son's name."

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Years ago I began to suspect something. I saw the early proto trinitarian evolution away from strict monotheism to full blown trinitarianism, and I kept noticing certain parallels in the evolution of Oneness teachers over the decades. I think I see what happened:

Paul (and others) refer to Christ as pre existing as God. I believe he and they were saying that "He Who you knew as 'God' is He Who manifested Himself among us in the person known as Jesus the Messiah." But some folks took the apostolic statements to mean the individual person (in the common sense of the term) known as Jesus was pre existing AS Jesus prior to the virgin birth. Thus many Oneness people use "Jesus" as the name of God irregardless of any reference to the incarnation. Over time this - combined with certain mistakes concerning the nature and origin of the Logos - ultimately evolve into a "Second pre existing Divine Person".

In other words, I think some in the Oneness camp are (albeit unawares and unintentionally) drifting into a proto trinitarian view. History seems to be repeating itself. It takes several generations (a couple hundred years) but I can see the trajectory paralleling the early trinitarian evolution.

Totally agree with the bold. The operative words are “manifested” and “begotten”. Hence the body could never exist in the beginning, but the name could and would be revealed later to those that had ears to hear.

[votivesoul]

The NKJ and others would read:

“Behold, God (el) is my salvation (yeshuah), I will trust and not be afraid; ‘For YAH, the LORD (Yah), is my strength and song; He also has become my salvation (yeshuah) .’ ” Isaiah 12:2

Jesus (Iesous) comes from the Hebrew (yehoshua)

Behold, God is my Jesus, I will trust and not be afraid; ‘For Yah, the Yah, is my strength and my song; He also has become my Jesus.”

The Hebrew word yeshuah is not the same as the Aramaic name Yeshua. The Hebrew word yeshuah is a feminine noun and is derived from the Hebrew word yasha. The Aramaic name Yeshua, a masculine pronoun, is derived from the Hebrew name Yehoshua, which is derived from YHVH and yasha. Similar in derivation, yes, but not the same words, whether in orthography, or in meaning.

Furthermore, the Hebrew of Isaiah 12:2 does merely read yeshuah.

In fact, the first part of the verse reads as follows:

אֵ֧ל יְשׁוּעָתִ֛י

Transliterated, it reads, from left to right el yeshuati, meaning God is my salvation, not "God is my Jesus".

The second part of Isaiah 12:2 reads as follows:

יְהוָ֔ה וַֽיְהִי־ לִ֖י לִֽישׁוּעָֽה

Transliterated, from left to right, the text reads YHVH way-hi li li'shuah. In English, the translation is "YHVH is and has become my salvation", not "He also has become my Jesus".

See:

https://biblehub.com/hebrew/3444.htm
https://biblehub.com/hebrew/3442.htm
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/isaiah/12-2.htm