Basic Standards

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

Don't leave out all men should have beards to keep men's face from being lady like.

Leviticus 19:27 KJV
Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by coksiw

Good points Esaias,

You reminded me of other verse like: Genesis 35:1-4, and Ex 32:2-4, 33:4-6.

The incident in Genesis is an illustration of the principle. And it is something that has recurred throughout history. When people get serious about God, they lose interest in other things. Those things may not be necessarily sinful or bad in themselves, but they just don't have the attraction they once had. Vanity Fair ceases to be entertaining for such people.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Originalist

I agree with you here in principle. However, I do not see a wedding ring or wearing great grandma's broach as necessarily being gaudy or equating to "adornment" that would be viewed in the same right as how the women of Israel were behaving.

I don't think Paul was saying the Christian women he was addressing (indirectly, that is) were doing the same as rebellious Israel, as if those Christian women were haughty and arrogant towards God. That wasn't my intention or implication, anyways.

I also don't think the church today is dealing with sisters who just want to wear MeeMaw's brooch for sentimental reasons...

[james34]

Beards maybe , not likely though in the U.S.
Goatee’s ....lol.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I don't think Paul was saying the Christian women he was addressing (indirectly, that is) were doing the same as rebellious Israel, as if those Christian women were haughty and arrogant towards God. That wasn't my intention or implication, anyways.

I also don't think the church today is dealing with sisters who just want to wear MeeMaw's brooch for sentimental reasons...

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[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by coksiw

Regarding uncut hair. The greek word for it in in 1 Cor can be translated as long hair or uncut hair.

This isn't true.

The Greek word for long hair in 1 Corinthians 11:15 is κομᾷ or koma.

See: https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_c...ians/11-15.htm

It means to wear long hair or to allow the hair to grow out.

See: https://biblehub.com/greek/2863.htm

It is from the Greek word κόμη or kome, which simply means "hair".

See: https://biblehub.com/greek/2864.htm

And since hair grows from underneath the scalp, at the follicles, and not from the ends, letting one's hair grow long is not merely a matter of a woman occasionally cutting or trimming her hair in small amounts at the ends, but of the overall length as it comes out from the head and flows down the body.

In fact, in the Spanish Bible RV1960 is translated as "uncut hair".

This isn't true.

The Reina-Valera 1960 version of 1 Corinthians 11:15 reads

15 Por el contrario, a la mujer dejarse crecer el cabello le es honroso; porque en lugar de velo le es dado el cabello.

Note the emboldened text above.

The phrase "dejarse crecer el cabello" does not mean uncut hair. It means to allow oneself to grow the hair. To render the phrase uncut, the text would read "sin cortar".

See: https://www.spanishdict.com/translate/dejarse%20crecer

https://www.spanishdict.com/translate/uncut

Why? because there wasn't such a thing as long cut hair.

This isn't true.

2 Samuel 14:26,

And when he polled his head, (for it was at every year's end that he polled it: because the hair was heavy on him, therefore he polled it: ) he weighed the hair of his head at two hundred shekels after the king's weight.

Here we see Absalom and his famous locks, which he only cut once a year, but which grew so long and heavy at the end of each year, it weighed the same as two hundred shekels, which is just over 5 pounds of hair, according to the modern Hebrew shekel.

See: https://www.unitconverters.net/weigh...w-to-pound.htm

See: https://www.essiebutton.com/how-much...o%205%20pounds.

Note the quote from the second link:

However, hair doesn’t weigh much – even a lot of hair isn’t heavy. If you think your weighing scale is showing a higher number, it’s not because you have long and thick hair.

Many sources suggest that a full head of long hair weighs around an ounce or two (30–60 grams). Its maximum weight can go up to 5 pounds.

Paul appeals to nature (creation, the beginning) to make his point. It is not a cultural issue, either.

Here, we are not the only ones that think that way:

Jewish Encyclopedia:
http://jewishencyclopedia.com/articl...1-hair#anchor3
Among women long hair is extolled as a mark of beauty (Cant. iv. 1, vii. 6). A woman's hair was never cut except as a sign of deep mourning or of degradation (Jer. vii. 29; comp. Deut. xxi. 12).

Paul's appeal to nature cannot mean cut or uncut, as a man, in a fully natural state, under no command to keep his hair short, like Adam (creation, the beginning?), for instance, would see his hair grow just as long if not longer than any woman.

[votivesoul]

Regarding 1 Peter 3:1:6,

1. Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;
2. While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear.
3. Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;
4. But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.
5. For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:
6. Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.

The context is the submission Christian wives are to render unto their husbands, particularly either unsaved/unbelieving husbands, or Christian husbands who are currently in a state of disobedience/unbelief, for whatever reason.

If a Christian woman finds herself in such a context, Simon urges them to not think that beautifying themselves outwardly is going to entice the husband to obey the Word. It will not. Rather, it is the inner qualities of the Christian wife's life that will do the trick.

This passage, therefore, is not a prohibition against the wearing of any or all jewelry, any more than it is a prohibition against "putting on of apparel". Essentially, Simon is urging Christian wives in this context to not try to deck themselves out in their finery in order to use their appearance as the means whereby their husbands will convert or begin to obey the Word.

This strongly suggests that these Christian women did indeed have jewelry insomuch as Simon is counseling them not to wear such things as a means of securing their husband's obedience. The implication is if you own and wear such things as jewelry, do not depend upon it as the mechanism whereby your husband is going to become convinced to submit to the Lord. Rather, trust in the work of the Holy Spirit through you, granting you meekness and quietness of heart.

[votivesoul]

Regarding 1 Timothy 2:9,

In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;

Note first that each use of "or" in the above verse, as in "or gold, or pearls, or costly array", is the Greek copulative preposition καὶ or kai.

See: https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_timothy/2-9.htm

While kai can at times be translated as "or", in this case, "and" would be better. Here is why:

In first-century Rome, a popular headdress/hair net looked like this:



From: https://www.ancient.eu/image/3232/roman-gold-hairnet/

These were inherited from earlier Greek styles, like this:



From: https://www.ancient.eu/image/4353/gold-hairnet/

The braided hair that Paul is prohibiting is hair that has been interwoven with gold and pearl hair nets or headdresses. It is not a list of individual items, but rather one long continuous list, i.e. hair that is braided with gold and pearls and other expensive array/raiment.

And why would Paul urge Christian wives not to do such things? Well, for starters, he expected Christian wives in the Lord to wear a veil that completely covered the hair as per 1 Corinthians 11:5-6. Hair nets do not suffice in this manner.

And secondly, such expensive, worldly demonstrations of wealth do not allow Christian wives to be "shame-faced", that is to say, to be bashful toward other men in the sense of not making eye contact with anyone besides their husbands or other women, and children.

Rather, it attracts inappropriate attention, that is, the male gaze. And Paul would save Christian wives from such things.

See: https://biblehub.com/greek/127.htm

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by coksiw

What else do you both drop from the apostolic teachings because it is not explicit in the law? Are you OK with divorcing your wife for whatever reason?

Ad hominem. Non sequitor.

And just plain weak.

[votivesoul]

Finally,

As it pertains to preferences and personal convictions:

1. Preferences

Why does anyone prefer something other than what God has prescribed and proscribed in the Holy Scriptures?

Is your opinion and preference better than His?

2. Personal convictions

There is no such thing, in the sense most always meant. What is usually meant is something like "While I can't prove it with the Bible, the Holy Spirit has led me to believe and do X, Y, and/or Z."

As if to say the Holy Spirit would lead a person to submit themselves to something outside of the very Word the Spirit of God inspired to be written? It's basically claiming God Himself is adding to or taking away from His own written Word in order to give you extra-Biblical revelation on what He really wants of you.

Hogwash. Stick with the Scriptures.

Now, if you admit something you believe and practice standards wise is not in the Scriptures and you also admit it's coming from your own sense of things or from someone else, like your pastor or other church leaders, and not from God, then fine, call it a personal conviction if you want. But don't mix God into something you came up with on your own.