Pentematic

[Tithesmeister]

I agree with Esaias here.

Originally Posted by Esaias

I would say about 95% of oneness pentecostals equate holiness with "standards". They seem to have no concept of the actual depth of entire sanctification.

Example 1: two people in church. One "struggles with" standards. Their salvation is always in question and they are generally considered backslidden. The other "struggles with" lust/bitterness/doubt/fill-in-the-blank but if they look the part they are constantly assured they are doing okay and "it's just part of the Christian battle" etc.

Example 2: If you say "Holiness is required to make it to heaven" all oneness pentecostals within earshot will immediately assume you are talking about "standards" and will start arguing about hair length, dresses, sleeve length, video, makeup, jewelry, etc. They will not assume you are talking about heart purity, faith, dedication to God, or submission of every area of life to obedience to the Word/Law of God. Such things have to first be pointed out and then the usual disclaimers are put forward "Oh, of course, yes those things are important".

Example 3: This thread.

And Brother Michael here . . .

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Nails it

I probably should leave it there . . .


BUT . . .

Then it seems someone always has to say this, (the portion in bold).

Originally Posted by Bro Flame

Holiness is an inward and outward experience. Once you allow God to clean up the inside, you won't have an issue with following suit outwardly.

I'd agree that most Apostolics automatically think of "standards" as limitations and restrictions on outward attire and conduct. I'm glad I'm in a church where it's preached that inner and outer holiness are equally important to God. Now, I'm not saying that all of us have everything the way God wants it, but it isn't because it's not preached from the platform.

I have heard it many times from preachers. And obviously Brother Flame has too. But I don’t think Flame truly believes it. And I am sure those who preach it don’t believe it. They are hypocrites for saying it.

Because if they truly believed it, they wouldn’t preach the clothes line at all. They would preach inward holiness ONLY.

Because they would believe that preaching standards as we know them was a complete waste of time. They could simply look at the outside and perceive what ones inside holiness is. But, there is this . . .

1Sam.16

[7] But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.

[Esaias]

First, you said this:

Originally Posted by Bro Flame

You're absolutely right. The Pentecostal church as lost its identity. Holiness has left, and next to no one receives the Holy Ghost anymore. It's all got to do with their continuous push away from their foundation. Many Trinitarian Pentecostals are hard against Jesus Name, and even those that still practice outward holiness seem to lack the love of the Gospel and the desire to know Truth. They've become accustomed to dressing a certain way, but their heart isn't attached anymore. At least it doesn't seem that way.

This attitude as crept into the Apostolic church as well, as I'm sure you're well aware. Many an Apostolic looks just the world today, and the Holy Ghost is slowly taking a back-burner in most teachings.

Then, after it was brought up, you gave the "disclaimer" I had mentioned:

Originally Posted by Bro Flame

Holiness is an inward and outward experience. Once you allow God to clean up the inside, you won't have an issue with following suit outwardly.

I'd agree that most Apostolics automatically think of "standards" as limitations and restrictions on outward attire and conduct. I'm glad I'm in a church where it's preached that inner and outer holiness are equally important to God. Now, I'm not saying that all of us have everything the way God wants it, but it isn't because it's not preached from the platform.

Just wondering: would you stay in a church where standards were not adhered to, but heart purity and entire sanctification were earnestly believed in and preached? Or would you prefer to stay in a church where standards were adhered to but heart purity and entire sanctification were NOT believed in earnestly or only given token lip service?

Also, it seems people think that dropping standards results in less Holy Ghost. But I wonder, do people get the Holy Ghost because they adhere to certain specified standards? Or do people quite often get the Holy Ghost while being, shall we call it... "uncircumcised in the flesh"?

So perhaps the lack of Holy Ghost isn't caused by lack of outward standards. Perhaps it is something else causing it? Perhaps lack of certain specified standards is simply a symptom of a variety of other causes, one or more of which might be resulting in less Holy Ghost?

How does your church teach "inward holiness"? And regarding outward standards, do they teach that you just adhere more and more to the standards over time, but that you will never be fully compliant to those standards this side of heaven?

[Michael The Disciple]

How does your church teach "inward holiness"? And regarding outward standards, do they teach that you just adhere more and more to the standards over time, but that you will never be fully compliant to those standards this side of heaven?

The bolded knocks it out of the park!

[consapente89]

If the standards are biblical, then they are a part of our obedience and consecration to God, period. Just as it is necessary to walk victoriously over bitterness, envy, lying, lasciviousness, etc. If we are holy, then we are holy in ALL manner of conversation.

Matthew 23:26 (KJV) [Thou] blind Pharisee, cleanse first that [which is] within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

Sisters cutting their hair and wearing jewelry aren’t holy. Brothers lying and telling/laughing at lewd jokes aren’t holy.

[Bro Flame]

Nice misinterpretation of what I was trying to say. I'll try to clarify any confusion.

Holiness is a necessity for salvation. The Bible is clear that without holiness none of us shall see Jesus. He is holiness. How do we expect to see holiness without holiness? It ain't happening.

I do believe that holiness is an inward and outward experience. There is Bible to support inner holiness and also scripture to support outer modesty and sobriety. We are commanded to sustain from the very appearance of evil and worldliness. God isn't pleased with that lifestyle.

I once heard someone say that if holiness, in general, consists of inner and outer restrictions and cleansing, then we need to stop distinguishing "inner" and "outer" holiness. Well, that sounds good in theory, but it isn't quite that simple. So many churches today preach about inner, but neglect the outer. Likewise, there are just as many churches that place strong emphasis on the outer, but never touch the inner.

It takes both. Genuine holiness will reflect in all aspects of a Christian's life.

Someone earlier in the comments asked how my church teaches holiness. I'll give you all a rundown on it as quickly as I possibly can. Our pastors never preach sleeve length, hair length, dress length, or anything like that. Our churches hold a high standard of outward modesty, but I must tell you that there is a lot of preaching on having our inward man cleaned up and aligned with the Bible. There's many a message that triggers in my mind on how our "standards" do not save us. If we adhere to "standards" and still have a nasty inner man, then God is not pleased.

What say you?

[james34]

I have never met a Christian, “ regardless of denomination “ that didn’t believe in outward standards.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Bro Flame

Nice misinterpretation of what I was trying to say. I'll try to clarify any confusion.

Holiness is a necessity for salvation. The Bible is clear that without holiness none of us shall see Jesus. He is holiness. How do we expect to see holiness without holiness? It ain't happening.

I do believe that holiness is an inward and outward experience. There is Bible to support inner holiness and also scripture to support outer modesty and sobriety. We are commanded to sustain from the very appearance of evil and worldliness. God isn't pleased with that lifestyle.

I once heard someone say that if holiness, in general, consists of inner and outer restrictions and cleansing, then we need to stop distinguishing "inner" and "outer" holiness. Well, that sounds good in theory, but it isn't quite that simple. So many churches today preach about inner, but neglect the outer. Likewise, there are just as many churches that place strong emphasis on the outer, but never touch the inner.

It takes both. Genuine holiness will reflect in all aspects of a Christian's life.

Someone earlier in the comments asked how my church teaches holiness. I'll give you all a rundown on it as quickly as I possibly can. Our pastors never preach sleeve length, hair length, dress length, or anything like that. Our churches hold a high standard of outward modesty, but I must tell you that there is a lot of preaching on having our inward man cleaned up and aligned with the Bible. There's many a message that triggers in my mind on how our "standards" do not save us. If we adhere to "standards" and still have a nasty inner man, then God is not pleased.

What say you?

There was no misrepresentation.

Regarding how your church teaches holiness, I will repeat my question: does your church teach outward holiness is something that a person, over time, conforms to more and more, but total conformity is nevertheless impossible in this life?

Does your church teach and preach entire sanctification as obtainable in this life prior to physical death?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by james34

I have never met a Christian, “ regardless of denomination “ that didn’t believe in outward standards.

Everyone has standards. 99.99999% cannot agree on what those standards should be.

[Michael The Disciple]

Many Apostolic Preachers demand "perfection now" when it comes to their own standards.

Like men shaving. Women never trimming hair.

They must obey now.

When it comes to Jesus standards like the sermon on the mount they think say you should try but will never attain in this life.

[Jito463]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Many Apostolic Preachers demand "perfection now" when it comes to their own standards.

Like men shaving. Women never trimming hair.

They must obey now.

When it comes to Jesus standards like the sermon on the mount they think say you should try but will never attain in this life.

Every pastor I've ever had only mandated standards for people on the platform.