The United States NEEDS to Repent or Die.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by jediwill83

I use cambells condensed tomato and add heavy whipping cream with Italian herbs and simmer...great with grilled cheeses or topped with garlic croutons.

Wow! That would be a heavy soup, but probably good. Grilled cheese would be good. Can’t do the croutons because of the gluten. Ezekiel bread is my bread of choice. It makes excellent toast.

[Esaias]

Bumping the discussion about "natural law", Locke, and God's Word...

John Locke, Second Treatise On Government, Chapter 2:

Sect. 4. TO understand political power right, and derive it from its original, we must consider, what state all men are naturally in, and that is, a state of perfect freedom to order their actions, and dispose of their possessions and persons, as they think fit, within the bounds of the law of nature, without asking leave, or depending upon the will of any other man.
...
The state of nature has a law of nature to govern it, which obliges every one: and reason, which is that law, teaches all mankind,...
...
Chapter 4:

Sect. 22. THE natural liberty of man is to be free from any superior power on earth, and not to be under the will or legislative authority of man, but to have only the law of nature for his rule. The liberty of man, in society, is to be under no other legislative power, but that established, by consent, in the commonwealth; nor under the dominion of any will, or restraint of any law, but what that legislative shall enact, according to the trust put in it. Freedom then is not what Sir Robert Filmer tells us, Observations, A. 55. a liberty for every one to do what he lists, to live as he pleases, and not to be tied by any laws: but freedom of men under government is, to have a standing rule to live by, common to every one of that society, and made by the legislative power erected in it; a liberty to follow my own will in all things, where the rule prescribes not; and not to be subject to the inconstant, uncertain, unknown, arbitrary will of another man: as freedom of nature is, to be under no other restraint but the law of nature.

Locke's philosophy rests on the mythical and nonexistent "state of nature", governed by an unwritten mythical "law of nature" (or, "natural law"), which he defines as "reason" (which means what, exactly? Who decides what "reason" dictates as far as law and rights?). Originalist makes much ado about "natural law" and "natural rights" and claims Locke as his authority and reference. The MAGA movement he thinks is, or ought to be, fighting for the rule of "natural law" and the supremacy of "natural rights". But, observe:

1. The law of nature and natural rights are, according to Locke, proper for the STATE OF NATURE, in the absence of human society. Locke clearly distinguishes between the state of nature and the state of society, between the law of nature and the law of society, and between natural liberty and liberty within a society. To argue for a return to natural law is to argue a return to the state of nature and an overthrow of civil society. That is, it is to argue for a total dissolution of society, strict anarchy in its purest sense. But of course, Originalist seems to have missed all that.

2. Moreover, Locke teaches things that are wholly opposed to Divine Revelation. He claims man in a state of nature is subject to no law but this amorphous and undefinable "reason". The Bible teaches that man, as a moral agent, is subject to God's unalterable moral law, regardless of his state. Locke teaches that freedom is to be subject to no law except civil law, that freedom is absolute except as restricted by the civil government, that the legislative body of government ALONE prescribes law. The Bible teaches that God is the Lawgiver, that His Law is the Holy Bible, that freedom is the right and ability to obey God and deny sin, that man has no RIGHT to transgress God's Law regardless of what the civil legislature says.

Lockean theories of jurisprudence and rights are HUMANISM and inevitably lead to EXACTLY WHERE WE ARE: Globohomo Clown World. Locke gave lip service to God while subverting God's authority. Just like the Pharisees did. Just like most modern "Judeo-Christian" Americans continue to do.

God's truth isn't found in Locke's philosophy, but in the Holy Bible.

[Esaias]

Stemming from the Stoics and Thomas Aquinas and reaching down to Adam Smith and Thomas Paine, natural law has been the basis for the development of modern liberalism.

From "Grotius and the Natural Law Tradition", Literature of Liberty: A Review of Contemporary Liberal Thought, vol. 1, no. 4 October-December 1978. Can be found reprinted here: https://oll.libertyfund.org/page/gro...-law-tradition

[Esaias]

In contrast to the myth of "natural law" we have Revealed Law, the Divine Revelation from our Creator to us. This is absolutely necessary, for 2 reasons:

1. Sin has blinded man. His reason is not what dictates his actions. Man's volition is in bondage to sin. This bondage is voluntary, but that by no means makes it less real. Hence, man will "reason" his way to sin and justifying his sin.

Testimony from God: Jeremiah 17:9 KJV
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Since the heart is deceitful and desperately wicked, man requires an EXTERNAL source of Law. Left to his own devices, he will promote wickedness and enshrine iniquity into law. Divine Revelation is required for man to understand moral obligation, right and wrong.

2. Law is either moral, or physical. Physical law respects automatic processes, as the law of gravity, the laws governing sensory perception, the laws of motion, and chemistry, etc. Moral law respects the conduct of moral agents, it governs the choices men make. It is the law of right and wrong, what men should or should not do. Moral law is voluntary, a man may choose to do what is wrong.

Man, being a moral agent, is a subject of moral law. Since moral law governs choice and the will, it must originate in a moral agent. Physical processes do not give rise to moral law anymore than inert matter spontaneously generates life. Thus, moral law must come from a Lawgiver. There is only one universal lawgiver, God. Therefore, universal moral law must come from Him. The lawgiver must communicate His law to His subjects. That communication is Divine Revelation, it is the Holy Bible or WORD OF GOD. Therefore, moral law is found in the Word of God, not in the corrupted fallible reasonings of the subjects of moral law.

And therefore, appeals to "natural law" are unneeded and unuseful, and a distraction from finding genuine moral law. Instead, the Word must be resorted to as the sure communication from the Sovereign to His subjects.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Originalist

Let's be clear. The principle upon which we are founded is that of Natural Rights, aka Natural Law, aka "God-Given Rights."

If this is true, then we ought to rectify that ASAP, and get back to the Bible.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968

Either way, the church will be shadowed by the wings of the almighty.

Says who?

I used to believe that the church would be spared the Tribulation. Not sure I believe that anymore.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Bumping the discussion about "natural law", Locke, and God's Word...

John Locke, Second Treatise On Government, Chapter 2:

Sect. 4. TO understand political power right, and derive it from its original, we must consider, what state all men are naturally in, and that is, a state of perfect freedom to order their actions, and dispose of their possessions and persons, as they think fit, within the bounds of the law of nature, without asking leave, or depending upon the will of any other man.
...
The state of nature has a law of nature to govern it, which obliges every one: and reason, which is that law, teaches all mankind,...
...
Chapter 4:

Sect. 22. THE natural liberty of man is to be free from any superior power on earth, and not to be under the will or legislative authority of man, but to have only the law of nature for his rule. The liberty of man, in society, is to be under no other legislative power, but that established, by consent, in the commonwealth; nor under the dominion of any will, or restraint of any law, but what that legislative shall enact, according to the trust put in it. Freedom then is not what Sir Robert Filmer tells us, Observations, A. 55. a liberty for every one to do what he lists, to live as he pleases, and not to be tied by any laws: but freedom of men under government is, to have a standing rule to live by, common to every one of that society, and made by the legislative power erected in it; a liberty to follow my own will in all things, where the rule prescribes not; and not to be subject to the inconstant, uncertain, unknown, arbitrary will of another man: as freedom of nature is, to be under no other restraint but the law of nature.

Locke's philosophy rests on the mythical and nonexistent "state of nature", governed by an unwritten mythical "law of nature" (or, "natural law"), which he defines as "reason" (which means what, exactly? Who decides what "reason" dictates as far as law and rights?). Originalist makes much ado about "natural law" and "natural rights" and claims Locke as his authority and reference. The MAGA movement he thinks is, or ought to be, fighting for the rule of "natural law" and the supremacy of "natural rights". But, observe:

1. The law of nature and natural rights are, according to Locke, proper for the STATE OF NATURE, in the absence of human society. Locke clearly distinguishes between the state of nature and the state of society, between the law of nature and the law of society, and between natural liberty and liberty within a society. To argue for a return to natural law is to argue a return to the state of nature and an overthrow of civil society. That is, it is to argue for a total dissolution of society, strict anarchy in its purest sense. But of course, Originalist seems to have missed all that.

2. Moreover, Locke teaches things that are wholly opposed to Divine Revelation. He claims man in a state of nature is subject to no law but this amorphous and undefinable "reason". The Bible teaches that man, as a moral agent, is subject to God's unalterable moral law, regardless of his state. Locke teaches that freedom is to be subject to no law except civil law, that freedom is absolute except as restricted by the civil government, that the legislative body of government ALONE prescribes law. The Bible teaches that God is the Lawgiver, that His Law is the Holy Bible, that freedom is the right and ability to obey God and deny sin, that man has no RIGHT to transgress God's Law regardless of what the civil legislature says.

Lockean theories of jurisprudence and rights are HUMANISM and inevitably lead to EXACTLY WHERE WE ARE: Globohomo Clown World. Locke gave lip service to God while subverting God's authority. Just like the Pharisees did. Just like most modern "Judeo-Christian" Americans continue to do.

God's truth isn't found in Locke's philosophy, but in the Holy Bible.

Bumping

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Esaias

In contrast to the myth of "natural law" we have Revealed Law, the Divine Revelation from our Creator to us. This is absolutely necessary, for 2 reasons:

1. Sin has blinded man. His reason is not what dictates his actions. Man's volition is in bondage to sin. This bondage is voluntary, but that by no means makes it less real. Hence, man will "reason" his way to sin and justifying his sin.

Testimony from God: Jeremiah 17:9 KJV
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Since the heart is deceitful and desperately wicked, man requires an EXTERNAL source of Law. Left to his own devices, he will promote wickedness and enshrine iniquity into law. Divine Revelation is required for man to understand moral obligation, right and wrong.

2. Law is either moral, or physical. Physical law respects automatic processes, as the law of gravity, the laws governing sensory perception, the laws of motion, and chemistry, etc. Moral law respects the conduct of moral agents, it governs the choices men make. It is the law of right and wrong, what men should or should not do. Moral law is voluntary, a man may choose to do what is wrong.

Man, being a moral agent, is a subject of moral law. Since moral law governs choice and the will, it must originate in a moral agent. Physical processes do not give rise to moral law anymore than inert matter spontaneously generates life. Thus, moral law must come from a Lawgiver. There is only one universal lawgiver, God. Therefore, universal moral law must come from Him. The lawgiver must communicate His law to His subjects. That communication is Divine Revelation, it is the Holy Bible or WORD OF GOD. Therefore, moral law is found in the Word of God, not in the corrupted fallible reasonings of the subjects of moral law.

And therefore, appeals to "natural law" are unneeded and unuseful, and a distraction from finding genuine moral law. Instead, the Word must be resorted to as the sure communication from the Sovereign to His subjects.

You are very selective in your quotes. Locke's views are based on what scripture says on how humans should treat other humans. He is giving God the credit for creating this order of things. It is indeed part of moral law.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Originalist

You are very selective in your quotes. Locke's views are based on what scripture says on how humans should treat other humans. He is giving God the credit for creating this order of things. It is indeed part of moral law.

At least I *have* quotes. Unlike someone around here...

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Esaias

At least I *have* quotes. Unlike someone around here...

I have a Master's in History. I think I know what Locke believed. Since he does not call for the theocratic form of government you want, you misrepresent him. This thread is about the USA needing to repent. If you'd like info on Locke and why is natural law theories are Biblically based, I will be happy to send you some.