Hello aff devils

[Antipas]

Originally Posted by BrainWashed

Rev 21:4
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.


If you entered heaven and discovered the family member(s) you thought were saved ended up being lost for eternity, wouldn't that thought bring you tears and sorrow?

According to scripture, there will be no sorrow, tears, or pain in heaven. I can only assume that you'll be unaware of who was lost for eternity, otherwise you would experience crying, sorrow, and pain in heaven, which scriptures state will no longer exist in heaven.

The only other method of not feeling pain and sorrow in heaven is becoming numb to the fact that your family members didn't make it. Don't we desire that our loved ones be saved while they're alive on Earth? Why would our mentality change to, "ahh they deserved what they got" after we enter heaven, after discovering they're lost for eternity?

Whoa... slow down. Let's slow down and look at the text you presented. This text is typically regarded as a text relating to the eternal state. Now, let's read it slowly...

Rev 21:4
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Question, if there are no tears in the new heavens and the new earth... what is God wiping away from everyone's eyes???

Here we see a tender and loving God wiping all the tears from the eyes of the redeemed, tears being shed in the new heavens and the new earth. Could these tears be tears of sorrow after having lost loved ones? Most certainly. What about tears regarding trials and tribulations on earth? Again, most certainly. But we see that God wipes them "all" away. For as long as it takes, God is there to comfort us. And eventually the reality and experience of there being no more death, sorrow, crying, or pain will be realized.

I remember hearing a teacher talk about Hell and the various interpretations and understandings regarding Hell. He brought up something very interesting. I'll present it here...

Revelation 14:10
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Notice, Hell (the lake of fire) is not in some cast away "dimension" far far from God's presence. It is in the very presence of the Lamb and the holy angels. It is before the very throne of Christ. While our God is a river of life, He is also a consuming fire. Might this speak symbolically of a spiritual reality experienced before the throne of God? What if for the redeemed God's presence is "Paradise"... but for those who have refused God's grace, mercy, and love God's presence is a "lake of fire"???

In this sense, Hell is a choice. A state of being, a frame of mind, a hateful disposition towards the Holy. A wailing and sorrowful disposition towards having wasted one's life by refusing God's love. A state of being wherein the flames of hatred, anger, shame, loss, and rebellion burn as hot as the soul's resistance to God's authority, holiness, and presence.

For those who hate God and have refused Him, Heaven would be Hell. Blessings and peace of His glorious presence fiery torment.

In light of this, our loved one's eternal state will be realized as being of their own choosing. The gates of Hell, as it were, being locked... from the inside.

This interpretation has always intrigued me. With this in mind, let's look at one more passage...

Luke 16:19-26
19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

Notice that in this parable these two souls were near one another during their earthly lives, so close Lazarus the beggar laid at the rich man's gate, desiring for just the crumbs and left overs of the rich man's table. And notice that even in eternity, they are close enough that the rich man can see Lazarus experiencing the blessing and joys of being with Abraham in Paradise, while now he himself is in torments. They are so close in fact, the rich man can communicate with Abraham. And while Abraham speaks of a "great gulf" that is fixed between the two, it is clearly not so great that they cannot see and communicate freely. Nor so great that the rich man couldn't imagine Lazarus crossing over and soothing his tongue with a drop of water.

What if they are essentially... in the same place?

But one is experiencing it as Paradise, and the other is experiencing Hell?

What if the "great gulf" that is fixed between them isn't a literal canyonlike gulf, but rather it is a symbolic depiction or metaphor to describe the difference in their disposition? A chasm of mind and heart, not a physical chasm. And so, those who are experiencing Paradise cannot cross over into that lost state of being, nor those in Hell cross over into that saved state of being. And it's "fixed". Their minds are fixed. They are forever in the dispositions they have chosen. Close enough to talk and even perhaps touch... but millions of miles apart in their experience.

Of course, the parable ends as follows...

Luke 16:27-31
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Here we see the disposition of the lost. The rich man pleads to have Lazarus be risen from the dead and sent to the rich man's father's house to speak to his five brothers in the hopes that their seeing a man raised from the dead warning them of Hell they would repent. But Abraham breaks it down...

"If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."

The "great gulf" of separation from Paradise is already fixed in these five brothers. They refuse Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rise from the dead.

So, finding those we love who have been lost may not be all that difficult. However, their ever experiencing our blessedness is impossible. And it is all their own choosing.

I don't know. But these are a few thoughts I had on it.

[BrainWashed]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Plenty of people experience sadness, pain, grief, loss, etc, and eventually stop weeping and grieving, without them either forgetting or becoming "numb".

It is entirely conceivable that the saints will accept the righteous judgments of God, which is to be expected in fact since converted persons have and continue to lay down their wills and desires to prefer the will of God be done, as they believe His decisions are the best.

Wiping away tears doesnt mean wiping away memories.

I know people that weep to this day, which lost family members many years ago. Time doesn't always "heal" grief. Some memories often bring sorrows, and that can't be denied.

You mentioned that "wiping away tears doesn't mean wiping away memories."

Do you believe that whenever you're in heaven, you'll have a thought about a loved one (e.g. parents, siblings) being lost for eternity, and you'll be okay with it?

What could you possibly say to that? Ah..they didn't listen so they deserved eternal damnation. We are human beings created with emotions. Can you really say they you'd be in heaven, knowing your family is lost for eternity, and just accept it and be okay with it? You don't believe in some conscious level you would desire your family to be there?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by BrainWashed

I know people that weep to this day, which lost family members many years ago. Time doesn't always "heal" grief. Some memories often bring sorrows, and that can't be denied.

God is greater than time, and greater than our grief and sorrows. God shall wipe away all tears from our eyes. We shall be healed, made whole, and be blessed ("happy") throughout the ages of the ages.

You mentioned that "wiping away tears doesn't mean wiping away memories."

Do you believe that whenever you're in heaven, you'll have a thought about a loved one (e.g. parents, siblings) being lost for eternity, and you'll be okay with it?

What could you possibly say to that? Ah..they didn't listen so they deserved eternal damnation. We are human beings created with emotions. Can you really say they you'd be in heaven, knowing your family is lost for eternity, and just accept it and be okay with it? You don't believe in some conscious level you would desire your family to be there?

First of all, our destiny isn't heaven, it is eternity with God here on earth. But I understand what your saying.

You seem to be cheapening the overcoming power of God's love, and of His comfort. If God can't make you happy unless some loved one is with you, then I am afraid you are likely not going to make it.

Jesus said if we do not hate mother, father, wife, husband, sister, brother, son, daughter, yea and our own life also, we cannot be His disciple. What does that mean to you? Sounds to me like it means He has to be our number one priority, that if everyone on earth rejected Him we would still follow and live Him, that if following Him means leaving our closest friends and family behind then we weep, and then pull up our big boy pants and move on.

"Though none go with me, still I will follow...no turning back, no turning back."

Ever read Pilgrim's Progress? It teaches an important lesson.

Quite a few folks actually worship friends and family, with God just as a means to an end, instead of Him being the GOAL. Quite a few folks will find themselves lost because Jesus can't make them happy unless some demsnd of theirs is met.

This isnt about being nonchalant towards loved ones. It about proper perspective. "Let the dead bury their own dead". David wept and grieved for his dying child. When the child died, he wept no more. Why is that?

[TakingDominion]

Originally Posted by Esaias

. David wept and grieved for his dying child. When the child died, he wept no more. Why is that?

I believe David said while the child yet lived, he thought God might have mercy and allow it to live. Once it died, there was no more reason to weep...

[BrainWashed]

Originally Posted by Antipas

Whoa... slow down. Let's slow down and look at the text you presented. This text is typically regarded as a text relating to the eternal state. Now, let's read it slowly...

Rev 21:4
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Question, if there are no tears in the new heavens and the new earth... what is God wiping away from everyone's eyes???

Here we see a tender and loving God wiping all the tears from the eyes of the redeemed, tears being shed in the new heavens and the new earth. Could these tears be tears of sorrow after having lost loved ones? Most certainly. What about tears regarding trials and tribulations on earth? Again, most certainly. But we see that God wipes them "all" away. For as long as it takes, God is there to comfort us. And eventually the reality and experience of there being no more death, sorrow, crying, or pain will be realized.

If you read Rev 21:4, which you posted above, you'll see tears, death, sorrow, and crying are associated to the "former things that have passed away." Read the end of that scripture. The tears aren't present tense, they're of past-tense. In the new heaven and earth, tears will not exist as you claim, since they passed away with the former things.

So to answer your question, there will be no tears in the new earth and heaven to wipe away, as they have passed away (former things have passed away- Rev 21:4).

Originally Posted by Antipas

I remember hearing a teacher talk about Hell and the various interpretations and understandings regarding Hell. He brought up something very interesting. I'll present it here...

Revelation 14:10
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Notice, Hell (the lake of fire) is not in some cast away "dimension" far far from God's presence. It is in the very presence of the Lamb and the holy angels. It is before the very throne of Christ. While our God is a river of life, He is also a consuming fire. Might this speak symbolically of a spiritual reality experienced before the throne of God? What if for the redeemed God's presence is "Paradise"... but for those who have refused God's grace, mercy, and love God's presence is a "lake of fire"???

Above you mentioned that "Hell (the lake of fire) is not in some cast away dimension far from God's presence." Would you entertain the thought that Revelations 14:10 isn't referring to hell? Rev 14:13 reads, Then I heard a voice from heaven say, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.” Death and hell are still present until they're thrown into the lake of fire - Revelation 20:14. I don't see how this part of your post ties into my initial question.

[BrainWashed]

Originally Posted by Esaias

God is greater than time, and greater than our grief and sorrows. God shall wipe away all tears from our eyes. We shall be healed, made whole, and be blessed ("happy") throughout the ages of the ages.

Sure, god is greater than time, grief and sorrow.

Revelations 21:5 reads, He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true."

Understanding God will remove death, pain, sorrow, etc., could it be possible that he will erase certain memories that would cause sorrow? Yes, it's possible. Is it possible that God will remove certain emotions from us? That's possible too. When god created Adam and his wife, they were both naked, and they felt no shame, and they were whole. There was no emotion of shame present. Being made whole might mean certain memories being erased or emotions being deleted.

Originally Posted by Esaias

First of all, our destiny isn't heaven, it is eternity with God here on earth. But I understand what your saying.

I'm sure you understood what I was indicating.

Originally Posted by Esaias

You seem to be cheapening the overcoming power of God's love, and of His comfort. If God can't make you happy unless some loved one is with you, then I am afraid you are likely not going to make it.

I don't believe I'm cheapening the power of god. Something must occur to remove grief. Remember, Adam and Eve felt no shame while naked. They didn't posses that emotion until after the fall. Prior to that they were "whole." I wonder what other emotions they didn't posses while "whole." Is it possible certain emotions will be removed from us to forget grief and sorrow, yes.

Originally Posted by Esaias

Jesus said if we do not hate mother, father, wife, husband, sister, brother, son, daughter, yea and our own life also, we cannot be His disciple. What does that mean to you? Sounds to me like it means He has to be our number one priority, that if everyone on earth rejected Him we would still follow and live Him, that if following Him means leaving our closest friends and family behind then we weep, and then pull up our big boy pants and move on.

Jesus is my number one priority, and will always be chosen above any family member. It's His will above my own, even if it means forsaking my family. However, that doesn't negate the fact that I have parents and siblings that need god. The father, when seeing his son a far off (prodigal son), had compassion (concern for his sufferings) for his son, ran to him, hugged and kissed him. It seems like the father never pulled his big boy pants up after his son left for a distant country.

Originally Posted by Esaias

Quite a few folks actually worship friends and family, with God just as a means to an end, instead of Him being the GOAL. Quite a few folks will find themselves lost because Jesus can't make them happy unless some demsnd of theirs is met.

This isnt about being nonchalant towards loved ones. It about proper perspective. "Let the dead bury their own dead". David wept and grieved for his dying child. When the child died, he wept no more. Why is that?

I think David taught us a great lesson. David fasted and cried to change god's mind about letting his baby live. If we're not constantly fasting and crying our to god for out loved ones, friends, and strangers, do we really care about anyone else beside ourselves? If God's willing that none should perish, why should I pull up my 42 waist pants and move on? Again, this is beside the point.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by BrainWashed

Sure, god is greater than time, grief and sorrow.

Revelations 21:5 reads, He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true."

Understanding God will remove death, pain, sorrow, etc., could it be possible that he will erase certain memories that would cause sorrow? Yes, it's possible. Is it possible that God will remove certain emotions from us? That's possible too. When god created Adam and his wife, they were both naked, and they felt no shame, and they were whole. There was no emotion of shame present. Being made whole might mean certain memories being erased or emotions being deleted.





I'm sure you understood what I was indicating.




I don't believe I'm cheapening the power of god. Something must occur to remove grief. Remember, Adam and Eve felt no shame while naked. They didn't posses that emotion until after the fall. Prior to that they were "whole." I wonder what other emotions they didn't posses while "whole." Is it possible certain emotions will be removed from us to forget grief and sorrow, yes.






Jesus is my number one priority, and will always be chosen above any family member. It's His will above my own, even if it means forsaking my family. However, that doesn't negate the fact that I have parents and siblings that need god. The father, when seeing his son a far off (prodigal son), had compassion (concern for his sufferings) for his son, ran to him, hugged and kissed him. It seems like the father never pulled his big boy pants up after his son left for a distant country.





I think David taught us a great lesson. David fasted and cried to change god's mind about letting his baby live. If we're not constantly fasting and crying our to god for out loved ones, friends, and strangers, do we really care about anyone else beside ourselves? If God's willing that none should perish, why should I pull up my 42 waist pants and move on? Again, this is beside the point.

I'm not saying "move on" NOW. There's still hope. But once the judgment is set, the only thing left is to accept God's decision. The Lord giveth, and the Lord taketh away. Blessed be the name of the Lord.

Your last paragraph, by the way, is sobering truth, about what our current attitudes ought to be.

[Antipas]

Originally Posted by BrainWashed

If you read Rev 21:4, which you posted above, you'll see tears, death, sorrow, and crying are associated to the "former things that have passed away." Read the end of that scripture. The tears aren't present tense, they're of past-tense. In the new heaven and earth, tears will not exist as you claim, since they passed away with the former things.

So to answer your question, there will be no tears in the new earth and heaven to wipe away, as they have passed away (former things have passed away- Rev 21:4).

I agree that the tears are associated with the "former things that have passed away". But that isn't the point. The point is timing. Let me ask a question. Exactly when in the timeline of events is God wiping tears away??? Is it before the new heaven and the new earth, with the new Jerusalem descending from God out of heaven? Or is it after the establishment of the new heavens and the new earth, after the new Jerusalem has descended from God out of heaven? Because that would be in the very beginning of the eternal state.

Let's look again together...

Revelation 21:1-4 (KJV)
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

As you can see, these weeping individuals are in the eternal state. The new heavens and earth have been established and the new Jerusalem has come down. It is declared that God is with men, and that they will be His people. Then we see God move to wipe away tears. Now, we both agree that these tears are associated with those things that have passed away. Probably trials, sufferings, things not yet understood, and yes... even the emotions related to lost loved one's who never entered in. These tears and emotions are quite real, and they are indeed present in these opening moments of the eternal state. Now God wipes the tears from people's eyes. This isn't depicting wiping away memories like ghosting a hard drive. This is far more intimate. He is grieving with them. Like a dear friend holding the hand of a weeping mother in a hospital, wiping away this mother's tears with a tissue until she regains her composure, this is what God will be doing in the opening of the eternal state. This symbol of empathy, care, and comforting symbolize God's desire and God's actions to help us move on from our sorrows, questions, and grief that we might fully embrace and experience eternity with Him.

Above you mentioned that "Hell (the lake of fire) is not in some cast away dimension far from God's presence." Would you entertain the thought that Revelations 14:10 isn't referring to hell? Rev 14:13 reads, Then I heard a voice from heaven say, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.” Death and hell are still present until they're thrown into the lake of fire - Revelation 20:14. I don't see how this part of your post ties into my initial question.

Revelation 14:10 reads...

Revelation 14:10 King James Version (KJV)
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Here we see John writing about the "lake of fire and brimstone". You'll notice that this lake of fire and brimstone is "in the presence" of the holy angels and of the Lamb. It is right before the throne. It isn't in some distant parallel dimension that is cut off from the very presence of Christ or something. It is smack-dab right there before the throne.

Now, I don't believe that there is a literal lake of fire. I don't believe there will be a furnace-like ditch wherein the damned are burning in eternal torments right before the throne where we can see and hear their screams when we go before Him to worship throughout eternity. Instead, I see the lake of fire and brimstone as being symbolic.

Jesus said the following...

John 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Paul reminds us of what JEHOVAH said in Isaiah...

Romans 14:11
For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

Every human soul will be drawn to the throne of Christ. Every single human soul will bow to Him, and every tongue confess to God. However, I believe that while this will be a blessed and heavenly experience for the saints... for those who have rejected God's authority, love, grace, and mercy... this will be pure Hell. Merely being in Christ's presence will be fiery torment for those who have rejected God. And the more God's authority and love is demonstrated before them, the hotter the flames of shame, failure, and regret. As both the saints and the wicked stand in the presence of Christ, each will experience His presence differently. For the saints, being in Christ's presence is a river and tree of life. For the wicked, it is a lake of fire and brimstone. Heaven and Hell are therefore not actually places... but they are states of being, dispositions of the soul.

Now, this reality began with Christ being given all power and authority, taking the reign, in the first century. The realities of death and hell will one day be fully contained in the lake of fire, for death and hell abide in the wicked. They are all spiritually dead, and they are all in broken relationship with God (hell).

But as it all relates to your question.

You had posted...

Originally Posted by BrainWashed

Yeah, I kinda was thinking about that this morning. I think people like to have the idea of them being able to see someone again when there's a possibility they may never see someone again. Maybe some form of comfort? The bible reads we'll be like the angels of God. I kinda wonder what his angels do. Do they just stand in God's presence and worship? I know we'll be with God for eternity, but doing exactly what........that would be interesting to know.

The notion of never seeing someone again is typically connected to the lost. However, lost or redeemed, the point I'm making is that we will all be in the presence of God before the throne of Christ. As we see in the parable about Lazarus and the rich man, we'll be near those we were near to in life. The rich man didn't have to search around to catch a glimpse of Lazarus resting in the bosom of father Abraham. It appears that we will be able to communicate, and existing with some sense of proximity. However, how we experience that reality in Christ's presence will be heaven or hell. And there is like a great gulf fixed between these two experiences, because they are dispositions of the soul. Although in one sense near to those who are lost, your experiential realities couldn't be further apart. There appears to be a proximity to those who knew in life.