7th Day Sabbath not for New Testament believers

[Esaias]

The concept of "the law written in the heart" (as opposed to tables of stone) is in reference to the new covenant. The Bible makes the promise of God's law being written in the heart in connection with the new covenant (Jeremiah 31, Hebrews 8).

Paul identifies this with the true, internal circumcision of the heart (Romans 2:29), which identifies "the true Jew" regardless of physical circumcision. Elsewhere Paul identifies this internal circumcision as denoting new covenant believers (Col 2:11-12, Phil 3:3).

He also identifies this heart circumcision with obeying the commandments of God:

1 Cor 7:
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

So that what matters is not physical circumcision (one's status as either Jew or Gentile) but whether or not one is keeping the commandments of God, which identify whether or not one has been circumcised in heart, whether one has entered the new covenant or not.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Ehud

Thank you again. I will continue my reading with all of this in mind.

Your welcome!

Years ago, I too once thought Pail was talking about gentile heathens whose conscience informed them of basic right and wrong. But letting the Bible interpret itself, I came to the understanding Paul isn't talking about heathens, because he is talking about "true Jews", whether gentile or Judean, which can only apply to Christians.

[peter83]

Brothers and sisters, Sabbatarians and seven day adventists etc.
What make you believe that not keeping the Sabbath is to brake the law? Why you think that the day Satur-day or the half Friday and the half Saturn-day is the way to obey? Do you have any New Testament verse were Jesus told us to observe days?

That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Did Jesus ever broke the law? He fulfil and now we are commanded to fulfil the Spiritual Law. Every Old testament command turns into a spiritual fulfilment..
Do you want to keep the Sabbath?
Then do what the Lord said. "REST FROM YOUR FLESHY WORKS"
wE WILL enter to the rest of the Lord ,but yet we must live according to that from now, so brothers take a rest!

1 I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.Thou shalt have no other gods before me
Believe that Jesus is the Son of God. "who ever abides to the dovtrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son"
2Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image
Dont even be greedy ,for ot is the same as Idolatrous
3" Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain"
Now we must do everything in the name of Jesus and also we can not swear at all.
4 Honour thy father and thy mother
"if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith" and If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
5 Thou shalt not murder That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
6 Thou shalt not commit adultery:whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
7Thou shalt not steal "8 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.
8 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour
Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. and let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.
9 Thou shalt not covet For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit,, they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts, For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
10 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy Therefore said some of the Pharisees, This man is not of God, because he keepeth not the sabbath day. , the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath 16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:6 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. 1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. , 9 Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein.,10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. Ρ11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain. ,5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. 4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. 9 There remaineth therefore a SABBATISM (rest) to the people of God.5 10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Brother Blume says: "Not one word TO keep sabbath from God til Moses."

Not one word from God to not lie with animals or not to cross dress until Moses, either.

In fact, no record God ever SAID sodomy was sinful until Sinai. No record whatsoever God ever told anyone "thou shalt not commit adultery" until Sinai, either.

Yet you know as well as I do all those things were sinful before Sinai, and after Sinai, and still today. So we must infer that those laws were known prior to Moses.

Considering the Sabbath day was SANCTIFIED, HALLOWED, MADE HOLY BY GOD before the Fall it is irrational to think man didn't know about God's Sabbath. And the fact it was holy means it was DIFFERENT and SET APART from the other days. Did God have church by Himself every Sabbath? Obviously not, for according to Jesus THE SABBATH WAS MADE FOR MAN.

If the Sabbath was made for man, it is a necessary inference that man was to recognize and keep that day SEPARATE from the other days. Therefore, it is a necessary inference that man was obligated to KEEP SABBATH FROM THE BEGINNING.

However, I have concluded awhile back you don't do too well with necessary inferences.

So brother, you think Christian should keep specifically Saturday for the Lord? or just one day of the week for the Lord?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by coksiw

So brother, you think Christian should keep specifically Saturday for the Lord? or just one day of the week for the Lord?

"The seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD."

Jesus rose the first day of the week, the day after the Sabbath.

"The evening and the morning were the first... second... third... fourth... etc day."

Therefore, the seventh day, the Sabbath, is from Friday evening until Saturday evening (if using a typical western calendar).

Christians should want to obey all ten of the Ten Commandments, including remembering the Lord's Sabbath. It is one of the ways we show our love for our Father, the Creator of all things.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by peter83

Brothers and sisters, Sabbatarians and seven day adventists etc.
What make you believe that not keeping the Sabbath is to brake the law?

Remember the Sabbath DAY to keep IT holy (Commandment number Four of the Ten Commandments). Not doing what the commandment said, or doing what the commandment said not to do, is "breaking the law". This should be obvious.

Why you think that the day Satur-day or the half Friday and the half Saturn-day is the way to obey?

"The seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD thy God." Jesus rose the first day of the week, which was the day after the Sabbath. The first day of the week is commonly called "Sunday" (in Greece is called Kuriake), so the day before that is the Sabbath (the seventh day of the week in Greece is called Sabbato, showing that it is indeed the Sabbath). Biblically, the day begins at evening, so the Sabbath begins on what we call Friday evening, and continues until the next evening.

In Greece, Sunday is called Kuriake ("The Lord's") because of catholic/orthodox influence, who claim "the Lord's Day" is Sunday. But this is incorrect, the Bible never calls the first day of the week the Lord's Day. Jesus said He is Lord of the Sabbath, and the Sabbath is the special day of the LORD, therefore Biblically the Lord's Day would be the Sabbath.

Do you have any New Testament verse were Jesus told us to observe days?

Jesus said "Man shall live by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God." That would include the Ten Commandments. Jesus was asked what had to be done to inherit eternal life, and He pointed to the Ten Commandments (Mark 10:19). He didn't mention the Fourth specifically, but He also didn't mention the First, Second, or Third, either. He also paraphrased the Tenth as "defraud not". If that means you don't have to keep Sabbath, then it also means you can worship idols and take His Name in vain.

That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

The Pharisees were following man made traditions in order to not actually do what the commandments actually said to do (Mark 7:5-13). So of course if anyone's righteousness wasn't better than that, they would never make it into God's kingdom.

Did Jesus ever broke the law? He fulfil and now we are commanded to fulfil the Spiritual Law. Every Old testament command turns into a spiritual fulfilment..
Do you want to keep the Sabbath?
Then do what the Lord said. "REST FROM YOUR FLESHY WORKS" ...


2Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image
Dont even be greedy ,for ot is the same as Idolatrous

The commandment includes not worshipping graven images. A spiritual analogy does not do away with the actual, stated command. Otherwise, you could bow to statues in prayer but are okay as long as you "aren't greedy", which is ridiculous. And so, ceasing from self justification to "rest in Christ" in no way equates to being free to break the Sabbath command, any more than not being greedy equates to being free to pray to statues.

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by Esaias

"The seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD."

Jesus rose the first day of the week, the day after the Sabbath.

"The evening and the morning were the first... second... third... fourth... etc day."

Therefore, the seventh day, the Sabbath, is from Friday evening until Saturday evening (if using a typical western calendar).

Christians should want to obey all ten of the Ten Commandments, including remembering the Lord's Sabbath. It is one of the ways we show our love for our Father, the Creator of all things.

Interesting, I didn't know you believed in keeping the Sabbath. I respect your position regarding the Sabbath. It is not my intention to persuade you about this, but I posted bellow my convictions just for the people reading this post, so they can judge themselves if they feel like going one route or the other.

My believes are based on these scriptures:

[Act 15:20, 29 NASB] 20 but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood. ... 29 that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell."
[Act 21:25 NASB] 25 "But concerning the Gentiles who have believed, we wrote, having decided that they should abstain from meat sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from fornication."
[Col 2:16 NASB] 16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day--

And also in the fact that the early church clearly switched from Saturdays to Sundays. I found this link that contains some of the quotes:
https://christianity.stackexchange.c...which-day#5338

I still believe in the principle of dedicating as much as you can one day a week to spend a significant amount of your time to study bible and worship. It is Sunday for me.

[Esaias]

Romans 14:
1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations. 2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs. 3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him. 4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. 5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. 6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks. 7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself. 8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.

Romans 14 is often brought up to justify Sabbath breaking, but a careful examination reveals that is a misuse and misinterpretation of Paul's teaching.

First, the claim is made that because of Romans 14, Sabbath keepers shouldn't judge Sunday keepers or other non Sabbath keepers. But then the non Sabbath keepers usually wind up judging the Sabbath keeper as being "in bondage" and somehow less than a genuine, true, or "full and free" Christian. Thus showing they aren't consistent in their application of the chapter.

Second, the term Sabbath is nowhere found in the passage, it must be inferred. But inferences require care, lest they turn out to be simply adding to the Word of God.

Third, the subject is "doubtful disputations". Doubtful means:

the thinking of a man deliberating with himself
a thought, inward reasoning
purpose, design
a deliberating, questioning about what is true
hesitation, doubting
disputing, arguing

Disputation means:

judicial estimation: - discern (-ing), disputation.

So doubtful disputations are judicial estimations or conclusions resulting from personal reasonings or deliberations.

These doubtful disputations or personal reasonings resulting in judicial estimations or conclusions revolved around such things as "esteeming one day above another vs esteeming every day alike" and "eating all things vs eating only herbs". So that what is being discussed are moral judgments based on personal deliberations concerning special days and restricted diets.

Jews were well known for fastings (both full and partial), abstaining from animal meats from gentile sources, and keeping various days as special or even "holy", NONE of which was ordained by God. But these various holidays, fast days, fasting regulations, abstentions from gentile food, etc, were given the status of "law" by Jews - and still have that status - even though they are really judgments or judicial decisions based on personal reasonings ("traditions of men"). For example, Pharisees usually fasted twice a week (Luke 18:12), which is generally understood to mean Mondays and Thursdays.

An interesting account is given in the Didache (8:1)concerning this:

But do not let your fasts coincide with those of the hypocrites: since they fast on Mondays and Thursdays, you must then fast on Wednesdays and Fridays.

This is, in fact, the origin of catholic/orthodox Wed. and Fri. fasting. Notice how it is said "you must then fast on..." showing how early catholicism was disobeying Paul's instructions, by imposing special observances of days (combined with fasting regulations) born out of personal deliberations, imposed on the church. Jews often did this in the first century to Gentiles (demanding that Pharisaic regulations concern extra biblical holidays, fasting, and other food regulations be observed as a point of obligatory faith and practice) and this Pharisaic mentality continued in Catholicism, with its appointment of weekly fast days, Lenten fasts, pre-Communion fasts, penance fasts, numerous holy days invented by men such as various Saints' Feast days, etc.

The Fourth Commandment, however, is not a "doubtful disputation". A doubtful disputation is NOT just any old thing about which someone somewhere might dispute, or have doubt's about. It is a personal deliberation, an "in my personal opinion" deliberation resulting in a judicial estimation or judgment "everyone ought to do thus and such." The Pharisee who wanted to fast twice a week or celebrate Chanukah was NOT to impose such things on others - Jew or gentile - as if such personal reasonings were of Divine institution and obligation. Nor were they to condemn fellow Christians for not observing what they personally had devoted to God. And vice versa. Same thing with the vegetarianism issue (v 2-3), which proves the issue wasn't God's commandments (Sabbath, food laws) but personal, extra Biblical convictions or determinations. IE extra Biblical "standards".

[peter83]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Remember the Sabbath DAY to keep IT holy (Commandment number Four of the Ten Commandments). Not doing what the commandment said, or doing what the commandment said not to do, is "breaking the law". This should be obvious.



"The seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD thy God." Jesus rose the first day of the week, which was the day after the Sabbath. The first day of the week is commonly called "Sunday" (in Greece is called Kuriake), so the day before that is the Sabbath (the seventh day of the week in Greece is called Sabbato, showing that it is indeed the Sabbath). Biblically, the day begins at evening, so the Sabbath begins on what we call Friday evening, and continues until the next evening.

In Greece, Sunday is called Kuriake ("The Lord's") because of catholic/orthodox influence, who claim "the Lord's Day" is Sunday. But this is incorrect, the Bible never calls the first day of the week the Lord's Day. Jesus said He is Lord of the Sabbath, and the Sabbath is the special day of the LORD, therefore Biblically the Lord's Day would be the Sabbath.



Jesus said "Man shall live by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God." That would include the Ten Commandments. Jesus was asked what had to be done to inherit eternal life, and He pointed to the Ten Commandments (Mark 10:19). He didn't mention the Fourth specifically, but He also didn't mention the First, Second, or Third, either. He also paraphrased the Tenth as "defraud not". If that means you don't have to keep Sabbath, then it also means you can worship idols and take His Name in vain.



The Pharisees were following man made traditions in order to not actually do what the commandments actually said to do (Mark 7:5-13). So of course if anyone's righteousness wasn't better than that, they would never make it into God's kingdom.





The commandment includes not worshipping graven images. A spiritual analogy does not do away with the actual, stated command. Otherwise, you could bow to statues in prayer but are okay as long as you "aren't greedy", which is ridiculous. And so, ceasing from self justification to "rest in Christ" in no way equates to being free to break the Sabbath command, any more than not being greedy equates to being free to pray to statues.

Anyway is hard when comes to religion.
For me i dont want to observe days because of the Lord. Seriously if Paul did not mention those verse i wuoted to you, maybe i should think oposite. But he mentioned and from the other site never said "you should keep" any days.
I dont believe and never Scripture says that Lord have a day..never.
God has all days.
He is not a Jew.
He dont have a human "holy language"
He dont have a "loving number" (7 or anything else)
He dont have "a" day...the only day of the Lord is actual "the day of the Lord"
Catholics,Jews,Muslims are all of the flesh and observe days,foods "dont touch,dont eat" etc.

(as for the obedience of the law, i never said that we should brake anything. We dont brake ,we fulfil. And as He said "to swear in his name" to the carnal hard-hearted Jew ,He now said "dont swear at all" .Did Jesu broke the law too? Or He brought to the real status?
The same goes for the clothing ,eating certain animals etc. Which are shadow of the things came and coming.
Pharisees were not all hypocrites! Actually were the only ones law keepers. The problem is (except the theological salvation through law vs faith) that Holiness is much more of that. Like the commandment "dont kill", is not enough ,you have to dont hate! Do you understand? Brake the law is not keep it, but foolfil is an other thing, is the real thing! Like the divorce. Moses left them divorce but from the beggining were not like that.

Anyway ,i dont wait to change your religion or opinion. I tell you, if the New Testament had not those verses i quoted you, and if Jesus cammanded us then i shoyld keep the day!
But did i told you ,i am a Sabbath keeper too?
I have my Sabbatism (which KJV translate as "rest") from now to the actual rest! God rested the Seventh day. He did not rested for a day. He entered in His rest from the 7nth day till.....eternity....and we fallow His example
4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
9 There remaineth therefore a SABBATISM (rest) to the people of God.5 10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

I am IN the Sabbath....Sabbath is not 24 hours...we will not enter to a 24 hour rest Amen, peace be to you

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by coksiw

Interesting, I didn't know you believed in keeping the Sabbath. I respect your position regarding the Sabbath. It is not my intention to persuade you about this, but I posted bellow my convictions just for the people reading this post, so they can judge themselves if they feel like going one route or the other.

My believes are based on these scriptures:

[Act 15:20, 29 NASB] 20 but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood. ... 29 that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell."
[Act 21:25 NASB] 25 "But concerning the Gentiles who have believed, we wrote, having decided that they should abstain from meat sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from fornication."
[Col 2:16 NASB] 16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day--

And also in the fact that the early church clearly switched from Saturdays to Sundays. I found this link that contains some of the quotes:
https://christianity.stackexchange.c...which-day#5338

I still believe in the principle of dedicating as much as you can one day a week to spend a significant amount of your time to study bible and worship. It is Sunday for me.

It was the catholic trinitarians of Rome and Alexandria who dropped Sabbath keeping in favor of Sunday, because they were infected with Mithraism whose weekly holy day was "The Day of the Sun/first day of the week." Mithraism is Baalism under a Persian name, very popular in the first three centuries throughout the Roman Empire. Eventually, catholic dominance forced Sunday keeping onto the whole empire, and Protestants for some reason kept it in spite of their "protesting" catholic innovations in worship.

From earlier in the thread:

Originally Posted by Esaias

The original apostolic church kept the Sabbath, and believers in succeeding generations followed the ancient, Biblical, and apostolic practice. In the second, third, and fourth centuries (100s, 200s, and 300s AD) a growing movement later identified as "catholicism" sprang up, spread abroad, and by the 4th century became the official religion of the Roman Empire

This movement was known for numerous innovations, including the following:

1. Binitarianism and Trinitarianism.
2. Pouring in place of immersion.
3. Various baptismal formulas in place of "in the name of Jesus Christ" only.
4. Veneration of martyrs, and relics of martyrs, veneration of saints, and veneration of angels, prayers to dead saints and angels, etc.
5. Imposition of various fasts and unscriptural food regulations, ascetism, "penance", flagellation, etc.
6. Adoption of pagan Sun worship such as Christmas, Sunday Passover and Sunday Pentecost, Sunday keeping, Sun symbolism, Eucharistic Mass, etc.
7. Clericalism, priesthood, clergy-laity distinction, magical sacraments, etc.
8. Gradual loss of genuine Holy Ghost baptism and charisms (gifts of the Spirit), replaced by ceremonial "Christening rites", Confirmation, creation of Exorcist as a priestly office, etc.
9. Introduction of physical altars, candles, incense, vestments, bell ringing, and special dedicated temples (church buildings), and so forth.
10. Queen of heaven worship masquerading as veneration of Mary, concept of the Theotokos (Mother of God), etc.

Many of these changes took place over time, and much was fiercely debated as each new innovation was brought in. The "Ante Nicene Fathers" are essentially the writings of various persons recording these various debates. They allow us to chart the rise and development and spread of error and heretical departures from original apostolic faith and practice.

Interestingly, many of the innovations and heresies originated in Rome, and Alexandria. Trinitarianism, Gnostic tendencies, Sun worship, pagan Mystery cult elements, all of these things can be seen getting an early start and maintaining a strong foothold in Rome and Alexandria.

Which brings me to a citation from the 5th century writer Sozomen, in his Ecclesiastical History. After surveying the numerous varieties of local customs throughout the Empire regarding things like the numbers of deacons per church, how many churches a bishop might oversee, how many days or weeks the people fast throughout the year, how often an Alleluia was sung, and so forth, he makes the following observations:

"Assemblies are not held in all churches on the same time or manner. The people of Constantinople, and almost everywhere, assemble together on the Sabbath, as well as on the first day of the week, which custom is never observed at Rome or at Alexandria. There are several cities and villages in Egypt where, contrary to the usage established elsewhere, the people meet together on Sabbath evenings, and, although they have dined previously, partake of the mysteries." Eccl Hist, VII:19, see here for Book VII http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/26027.htm

According to Sozomen, writing in the fifth century, practically all Christians everywhere still kept Sabbath - except in Rome, and Alexandria. Hippolytus, a Roman apologist writing in the third century, refers to Sabbath keeping in the church at Rome ( See Apost Trad XX:7 full text here: http://www.bombaxo.com/patristic-stu...lic-tradition/ ), so Sabbath keeping apparently died out in Rome sometime between the 200s and 400s.

The early Christian history books are filled with polemics concerning Sabbath keeping, and just as trinitarianism replaced Oneness to become the "official" doctrine, Sunday keeping eventually replaced Sabbath keeping as the "official" practice.

Notes:

1. It is not intended that Sozomen was claiming most Christians kept Sabbath and not Sunday. The near universal practice in Sozomen's day (mid 5th century AD) was BOTH: Sabbath and Sunday were both recognized and observed, but among trinitarians Sunday had the preeminence, and eventually wholly displaced Sabbath altogether.

2. The citation from Sozomen follows a discussion of Passover keeping, where he points out Rome and Alexandria did not follow the practice of the rest of Christendom, but instead always kept Passover (and thus Pentecost) on a Sunday. The rest of the churches kept Passover on the 14th day of the first month of the Biblical calendar (14 Abib). The practice of Rome won out, and now all catholics and Protestants and Orthodox maintain a Sunday Passover/Easter and a Sunday Pentecost.

3. The rise of trinitarianism, and rise of Sunday keeping, are joined both historically and theologically. They arose in the same areas, promoted by the same people, and are part of the same Sun worshipping Baal religion masquerading as Christianity.