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  #11  
Old 08-24-2018, 12:37 PM
aegsm76 aegsm76 is offline
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Re: BY THIS STANDARD-Greg L. Bahnsen

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Originally Posted by Aquila View Post
I have. But my angle isn't one wherein I'm saying that God's Law must be enforced in modern society. My argument is that such social provisions are not some "socialist dream" that is alien to the Bible. I would never advocate that civil law legally mandate tithing (as the Reconstructionists would). I would point out that the poor tithe (an agrarian land tax) in the OT, and gleaning rights for the poor, sets the precedent that God cannot be said to be averse to the idea of taxation to fund provisions such as TANF, Social Security, SCHIP, Medicare etc. The Reconstructionist would reinstitute the poor tithe, gleaning rights, etc... I'm simply suggesting that we as a nation have a moral obligation to do better in regards to providing for the most destitute among us...and God would not be against such effort.
What group are you referring to here?
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  #12  
Old 08-24-2018, 01:10 PM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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Re: BY THIS STANDARD-Greg L. Bahnsen

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Originally Posted by aegsm76 View Post
What group are you referring to here?
The typical Christian Reconstructionists. Rushdoony covered the reinstitution of tithing in the foundational work of their doctrine, The Institutes of Biblical Law.
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  #13  
Old 08-24-2018, 01:15 PM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: BY THIS STANDARD-Greg L. Bahnsen

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Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple View Post
It says nothing like that. Please bold the parts that back this up.
Did they apply OT law to gentiles? Yes.
Did they require gentiles to become Jews? No.

Claim proven.

Your turn.
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  #14  
Old 08-24-2018, 01:17 PM
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Re: BY THIS STANDARD-Greg L. Bahnsen

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Originally Posted by aegsm76 View Post
What group are you referring to here?
People like me (whom he usually misrepresents because he doesn't understand theonomic reconstruction).
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  #15  
Old 08-24-2018, 01:27 PM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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Re: BY THIS STANDARD-Greg L. Bahnsen

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
Did they apply OT law to gentiles? Yes.
Did they require gentiles to become Jews? No.

Claim proven.

Your turn.
Can you explain where they applied the OT law to the Gentiles? The Jerusalem council appears to only focus in on dietary customs that would be offensive to Jews, and fornication.
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  #16  
Old 08-24-2018, 01:27 PM
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Amanah Amanah is offline
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Re: BY THIS STANDARD-Greg L. Bahnsen

Thoughts from Chapter 1:

Jesus did not come to abrogate the OT.

Matthew 5:17-19 17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Since Jesus did not come to change the law, we can assume that OT laws apply unless the bible shows us otherwise.

It is not up to us to pick and choose what we want to obey depending on our personal preference. But we allow the New Testament to interpret the OT for us.

The attitude of Jesus and the Apostles to the Mosaic law determines our Christian ethics.

An example of commands that would not apply would be the command to take Palestine by war. (opsie lol)

An example of principles that would still apply would be the difference between accidental manslaughter (by a flying axe head) and malicious murder.

Ceremonial laws of sacrifice obviously do not apply.

What Bahnsen is advocating is "the continuing validity of the Old Testament law, including its socio-political standards of justice"

He is not "advocating the imposition of God's law by force upon a society . . . God's kingdom advances by means of the Great Commission"

I think what Bahnsen is saying is reasonable. Instead of looking for precepts for morality from the philosophies or social contracts of men, let us have the whole bible as our standard for morality.

Last edited by Amanah; 08-24-2018 at 01:34 PM.
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  #17  
Old 08-24-2018, 01:36 PM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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Re: BY THIS STANDARD-Greg L. Bahnsen

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Originally Posted by Amanah View Post
What Bahnsen is advocating is "the continuing validity of the Old Testament law, including its socio-political standards of justice"

He is not "advocating the imposition of God's law by force upon a society . . . God's kingdom advances by means of the Great Commission".
This seems contradictory. How can "socio-political" agenda be put into place without forcing the agenda and imposing it upon upon the minority who strongly disagree with said agenda?

For example, I don't believe in Christian Reconstructionism. I believe in a spiritual kingdom governed by spiritual principles of the NT that are to be taught and embraced by individuals without any involvement or coercion from the government. If the Reconstructionists got what they wanted... how could they argue that they wouldn't be imposing biblical law socio-politically (by force of government) upon me and those who believe as I do?

Can you explain?

Last edited by Aquila; 08-24-2018 at 01:39 PM.
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  #18  
Old 08-24-2018, 01:41 PM
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Re: BY THIS STANDARD-Greg L. Bahnsen

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amanah View Post
Thoughts from Chapter 1:

Jesus did not come to abrogate the OT.

Matthew 5:17-19 17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Since Jesus did not come to change the law, we can assume that OT laws apply unless the bible shows us otherwise.

It is not up to us to pick and choose what we want to obey depending on our personal preference. But we allow the New Testament to interpret the OT for us.

The attitude of Jesus and the Apostles to the Mosaic law determines our Christian ethics.

An example of commands that would not apply would be the command to take Palestine by war. (opsie lol)

An example of principles that would still apply would be the difference between accidental manslaughter (by a flying axe head) and malicious murder.

Ceremonial laws of sacrifice obviously do not apply.

What Bahnsen is advocating is "the continuing validity of the Old Testament law, including its socio-political standards of justice"

He is not "advocating the imposition of God's law by force upon a society . . . God's kingdom advances by means of the Great Commission"

I think what Bahnsen is saying is reasonable. Instead of looking for precepts for morality from the philosophies or social contracts of men, let us have the whole bible as our standard for morality.
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Visit the Apostolic House Church YouTube Channel!


Biblical Worship - free pdf http://www.pdf-archive.com/2016/02/21/biblicalworship4/

Conditional immortality proven - https://ia800502.us.archive.org/3/it...surrection.pdf

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  #19  
Old 08-24-2018, 01:42 PM
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Amanah Amanah is offline
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Re: BY THIS STANDARD-Greg L. Bahnsen

Jesus undergirds the teachings of the OT by the Sermon on the Mount.

Matthew 5
The Beatitudes
5 And seeing the multitudes, He went up on a mountain, and when He was seated His disciples came to Him. 2 Then He opened His mouth and taught them, saying:
3
“Blessed are the poor in spirit,
For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4
Blessed are those who mourn,
For they shall be comforted.
5
Blessed are the meek,
For they shall inherit the [a]earth.
6
Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
For they shall be filled.
7
Blessed are the merciful,
For they shall obtain mercy.
8
Blessed are the pure in heart,
For they shall see God.
9
Blessed are the peacemakers,
For they shall be called sons of God.
10
Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake,
For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11 Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. 12 Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
Believers Are Salt and Light
13 “You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt loses its flavor, how shall it be seasoned? It is then good for nothing but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot by men.
14 “You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Nor do they light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. 16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.
Christ Fulfills the Law
17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one [b]jot or one [c]tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

Murder Begins in the Heart
21 “You have heard that it was said to those [d]of old, ‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother [e]without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’[f] shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, [g]‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of [h]hell fire. 23 Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25 Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. 26 Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny.

Adultery in the Heart
27 “You have heard that it was said [i]to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to [j]sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to [k]sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.

Marriage Is Sacred and Binding
31 “Furthermore it has been said, ‘Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.’ 32 But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except [l]sexual immorality causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery.

Jesus Forbids Oaths
33 “Again you have heard that it was said to those of [m]old, ‘You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform your oaths to the Lord.’ 34 But I say to you, do not swear at all: neither by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35 nor by the earth, for it is His footstool; nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. 36 Nor shall you swear by your head, because you cannot make one hair white or black. 37 But let [n]your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’ For whatever is more than these is from the evil one.

Go the Second Mile
38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ 39 But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. 40 If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also. 41 And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two. 42 Give to him who asks you, and from him who wants to borrow from you do not turn away.

Love Your Enemies
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 [o]But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet your [p]brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the [q]tax collectors do so? 48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.
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  #20  
Old 08-24-2018, 01:46 PM
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Amanah Amanah is offline
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Re: BY THIS STANDARD-Greg L. Bahnsen

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquila View Post
This seems contradictory. How can "socio-political" agenda be put into place without forcing the agenda and imposing it upon upon the minority who strongly disagree with said agenda?

For example, I don't believe in Christian Reconstructionism. I believe in a spiritual kingdom governed by spiritual principles of the NT that are to be taught and embraced by individuals without any involvement or coercion from the government. If the Reconstructionists got what they wanted... how could they argue that they wouldn't be imposing biblical law socio-politically (by force of government) upon me and those who believe as I do?

Can you explain?

Society would be changed over time as people obey the gospel and are taught biblical principles. It can not be forced, but must be enacted into law by a Christian society.
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