Trinitarian Commentaries vs. Discourse Analysis (E

[Sean]

Analyze the swamp creatures?


Sure, carry on Scott.......

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Scott Pitta

Can we return to discourse analysis ?

I'm trying to analyze the discourse on this thread.

[rdp]

Originally Posted by consapente89

Can I and my family be saved with the KJV alone?

*Sure, but, again, it's a poor-vague-misleading translation in many-many places. The ESV, NASB, etc. are far more accurate & faithful to the original languages & sense (as anyone engaging serious academia understands).

*Again, for those sincere in their desire to learn about the raw data of the transmission process, Bro. J.R. Ensey's book is absolutely tremendous (and factually places KJVO & the TR-priority camp in their coffins where they belong):

http://www.advanceministries.org/sto...word=Searching

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Esaias

RDP, who decided your church was going to the ESV as its primary text?

*There are still several who bring their KJV, which is absolutely fine w. us. A lady in the church was lamenting that she could not follow along w. the KJV so I got her the much better ESV translation - then another person wanted one, then another, then another, etc.

*Technically, I guess we have not officially switched to the ESV, but a lot of people are bringing it to church (thankfully). We many never officially change & I really am not pushing the issue - just encouraging them to read a better rendering than the KJV. I still read from the KJV for my text most of the time - but only due to familiarity for the saints.

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Sean

All because of copyright laws......




KJV But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.....



Becomes....





AMP [But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father in heaven forgive your transgressions.”]
AMPC But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father in heaven forgive your failings and shortcomings.
BRG But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.
CJB
CEV Whenever you stand up to pray, you must forgive what others have done to you. Then your Father in heaven will forgive your sins.
DARBY But if *ye* do not forgive, neither will your Father who is in the heavens forgive your offences.
DLNT
DRA But if you will not forgive, neither will your Father that is in heaven, forgive you your sins.
ERV
EHV But if you do not forgive, your Father in heaven will not forgive your sins.”
EXB | But if you don’t forgive other people, then your Father in heaven will not forgive your ·sins [transgressions; trespasses].|”
GNV For if you will not forgive, your Father which is in heaven, will not pardon you your trespasses.
GNT
HCSB [ But if you don’t forgive, neither will your Father in heaven forgive your wrongdoing.]”
ICB [But if you don’t forgive other people, then your Father in heaven will not forgive your sins.]
ISV But if you do not forgive, your Father in heaven will not forgive your sins.”
PHILLIPS “Have faith in God,” replied Jesus to them. “I tell you that if anyone should say to this hill, ‘Get up and throw yourself into the sea’, and without any doubt in his heart believe that what he says will happen, then it will happen! That is why I tell you, whatever you pray about and ask for, believe that you have received it and it will be yours. And whenever you stand praying, you must forgive anything that you are holding against anyone else, and your Heavenly Father will forgive you your sins.”
JUB For if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father who is in the heavens forgive your trespasses.
TLB By this time they had arrived in Jerusalem again, and as he was walking through the Temple area, the chief priests and other Jewish leaders* came up to him demanding, “What’s going on here? Who gave you the authority to drive out the merchants?”
MEV But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father who is in heaven forgive your sins.”
NABRE [ ]
NASB [But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father who is in heaven forgive your transgressions.”]
NCV But if you don’t forgive other people, then your Father in heaven will not forgive your sins.]”
NIRV And when you stand praying, forgive anyone you have anything against. Then your Father in heaven will forgive your sins.”
NIV
NIVUK
NKJV But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father in heaven forgive your trespasses.”
NLV *If you do not forgive them their sins, your Father in heaven will not forgive your sins.”
NMB
OJB [But if you do not give mechila (forgiveness) neither will your chattaim receive selicha (forgiveness) from your Av shbaShomayim.]
TPT But if you will not release forgiveness, don’t expect your Father in heaven to release you from your misdeeds.”
TLV
VOICE [ If you don’t forgive others, don’t expect God’s forgiveness.]
WEB But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father in heaven forgive your transgressions.”
WE But if you do not forgive others, your Father in heaven will not forgive you for the wrong things you have done.'
WYC And if ye forgive not, neither your Father that is in heavens, shall forgive to you your sins.
YLT and, if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father who is in the heavens forgive your trespasses.'
TOP



Some versions above omit the verse, including the ESV.

*LOL - ummm, are you familiar w. the variant-reading-reasonings behind why allll of these combined professional linguists have adopted this rendering?

*You're quite the hoot & a perfect example of the errors of KJVO w. your circular reasoning. So, continue beating your own chest while we continue presenting facts & pointing out your skewed misinformation.

*I'm out....too silly for me.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by rdp

[COLOR="Blue"][FONT="Georgia"]*Sure, but, again, it's a poor-vague-misleading translation in many-many places. The ESV, NASB, etc. are far more accurate & faithful to the original languages & sense (as anyone engaging serious academia understands).

Can you give five examples?

[Steven Avery]

Originally Posted by houston

I got turned onto the ESV when I went Reformed. Love it. But I do love the antiquated KJV. Not sure which I prefer more.
In 3rd place is the NLT. I used it at home in my last years of high school. Reading the OT and the gospels flow like a story book. I recommend it to every teenager.

Again, if the AV is from a pure Greek text (the Reformation Bible text) then those two modern versions from the Westcott-Hort recension are abjectly corrupt.

If the ESV is from a pure text, then the AV is abjectly corrupt, and should be totally discarded (God forbid!). Consistency.

Choose you this day.

A double-minded man.

Steven

[Esaias]

The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."
(John 3:8 ESV)

The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
(John 3:8 KJV)

The winde bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it commeth, and whither it goeth: so is euery man that is borne of the Spirit.
(John 3:8 Geneva)

the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.'
(John 3:8 YLT)

The Spirit breathes where He desires, and you hear His voice; but you do not know from where He comes, and where He goes; so is everyone having been generated from the Spirit.
(John 3:8 LITV)

The wind blows where it pleases, and you hear its sound; but you do not know whence it comes and whither it goes; such is every man who is born of the Spirit.
(John 3:8 Lamsa NT)

The wind bloweth where it will, and thou hearest the voice thereof, but knowest not whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
(John 3:8 ASV)

The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the voice thereof, but knowest not whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
(John 3:8 RV)

The wind [where it wants blows], and its sound you hear, but you know not from what place it comes, and where it goes; so is every one being born of the spirit.
(John 3:8 ABP)

The Spirit breatheth where he will and thou hearest his voice: but thou knowest not whence he cometh and whither he goeth. So is every one that is born of the Spirit.
(John 3:8 DRB)

Every version I come across, except the ESV, reads essentially "so is every one". The ESV reads "so it is with everyone". Which is correct? Even those based on the WH/Nestle-Aland texts read "so is every one" and not "so it is with every one".

The clause in question reads thus in Greek:

οὕτως ἐστὶ πᾶς ὁ γεγεννημένος ἐκ τοῦ Πνεύματος.

It looks to me like the Greek is saying "so is all who" etc. In other words, it is not "so it is with". It and with aren't in the text anywhere. Perhaps the ESV is using a different Greek text than everyone else seems to be using?

[Esaias]

No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.
(John 3:13 ESV)

And no man hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended out of heaven, even the Son of man, which is in heaven.
(John 3:13 RV)

And no one hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended out of heaven, even the Son of man, who is in heaven.
(John 3:13 ASV)

No man has ascended to heaven, except he who came down from heaven, even the Son of man who is in heaven.
(John 3:13 Lamsa NT)

And no one has ascended into the heaven, except the one from out of the heaven descending -- the son of man, the one being in the heaven.
(John 3:13 ABP)

And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
(John 3:13 KJV)

καὶ οὐδεὶς ἀναβέβηκεν εἰς τὸν οὐρανὸν εἰ μὴ ὁ ἐκ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ καταβάς, ὁ Υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου ὁ ὢν ἐν τῷ οὐρανῷ.

Even the RV and the ASV include "who is in heaven", yet the ESV does not? Is the Son of man in heaven? Or not? Which Greek text is correct?

[Esaias]

Speaking of vagueness...

We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning, but he who was born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him.
(1 John 5:18 ESV)

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
(1 John 5:18 KJV)

???