The Reason Why Kaepernick Kneeled

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by n david

You're arguing that a company should be forced to recognize its employees constitutional liberties. You did not offer any exclusions. Those quotes make it appear you are for a company to be forced to pay its employee to be able to protest on their job and during their work hours. And now after I've pointed out the absurdity of your posts, you're backtracking and claiming you didn't post what you did.

Can you quote me saying that a company should pay an employee while protesting on the job? Like I said, I'm in a union. And we wouldn't be paid if we picketed during work hours. I just don't think a person should lose their job over a civil liberty. And frankly, I think election day should be a mandatory day off.

Only you would try to claim the paragraph is ambiguous and ignore the part where it states they should stand at attention.

You're focusing on the secondary point. It says "may" not "shall". Therefore, it is entirely up to the NFL's discretion. If the NFL doesn't wish to use disciplinary action, they have the right not to.

You should read the article JD posted about why Kap decided to kneel. He thought it would be "powerful." He expected to be hailed as a hero, not denounced. The reason he's not talking is because he saw how badly his dumb protest was received. He thought people would support him.

Dreams a grandeur. Oh well. I support his right to protest. And I give him props for demonstrating what peaceful protest looks like.

Should employees be required to follow the rules of its employer? If a player doesn't want to follow the rules, they don't have to sign a contract which pays them a ridiculous amount of money to play a game. If they sign a contract, they should follow the rules. Period.

Again, where in the "contract" does it specify that players "shall" face disciplinary action if they do not choose to stand for the National Anthem? The NFL guidelines only said "may"... and if the contract doesn't specifically spell it out... those are the rules bro.

I find it strange... we're upset over a fellow American choosing not to stand for the Anthem of the very nation that values individual liberty, the right to protest, freedom of speech, and the freedom of religion.

Do you see the cognitive dissonance?

Or is there a difference between Kaepernick and other protestors?

[n david]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Can you quote me saying that a company should pay an employee while protesting on the job? Like I said, I'm in a union. And we wouldn't be paid if we picketed during work hours. I just don't think a person should lose their job over a civil liberty. And frankly, I think election day should be a mandatory day off.

When you post that a company should be forced, by rule of law, to allow an employee to exercise 1A rights, by extension it means they will have to pay that employee to protest while on the job. It was only after I called you out on this that you've changed and now claim you don't mean it.

Originally Posted by Aquila

You're focusing on the secondary point. It says "may" not "shall". Therefore, it is entirely up to the NFL's discretion. If the NFL doesn't wish to use disciplinary action, they have the right not to.

You're continuing to ignore the part which clearly states, "During the National Anthem, players on the field and bench area should stand at attention, face the flag, hold helmets in their left hand, and refrain from talking."

Whether or not the NFL chooses to discipline them is moot. The NFL manual states they should stand.

Originally Posted by Aquila

Again, where in the "contract" does it specify that players "shall" face disciplinary action if they do not choose to stand for the National Anthem? The NFL guidelines only said "may"... and if the contract doesn't specifically spell it out... those are the rules bro.

Their contract says they will abide by the NFL rules. The NFL manual clearly states: "players on the field and bench area should stand at attention..." That you continue to ignore it doesn't change the fact that it's there.

Originally Posted by Aquila

I find it strange... we're upset over a fellow American choosing not to stand for the Anthem of the very nation that values individual liberty, the right to protest, freedom of speech, and the freedom of religion.

Now you're being dishonest. I've said he can protest. I'm all for his right to do so. As a private citizen. Not when he's working on his job in uniform, taking the focus from the anthem and trying to make it about his pet political agenda.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by n david

When you post that a company should be forced, by rule of law, to allow an employee to exercise 1A rights, by extension it means they will have to pay that employee to protest while on the job. It was only after I called you out on this that you've changed and now claim you don't mean it.

You know you're stretching it. It's called a lie now bro. You know that's not what I intended. And this is where EVERY conversation I get in with you guys becomes toxic. You will refuse to hear and accept my clarification. Oh well, I'm not lying. I guess with some folks I'll have to explain everything down to the very minutia up front or they'll get lost in the woods on some preconceived silliness.

You're continuing to ignore the part which clearly states, "During the National Anthem, players on the field and bench area should stand at attention, face the flag, hold helmets in their left hand, and refrain from talking."

Whether or not the NFL chooses to discipline them is moot. The NFL manual states they should stand.

I agree that it states that they "should" stand. But since they only say players who don't "may" be disciplined, what they do with players who choose not to stand is entirely up to the NFL. That's just a fact. I mean, you gonna cry, spit, and throw things about the fact that they "should" stand? Until it's written with teeth, the NFL can do as they wish with players who take a knee. And like it or not, they've chosen to be relatively tolerant.

Their contract says they will abide by the NFL rules. The NFL manual clearly states: "players on the field and bench area should stand at attention..." That you continue to ignore it doesn't change the fact that it's there.

LOL Keep pounding your fists. It doesn't state that those who don't "shall" be disciplined. It's like a general code of conduct statement. It isn't some enforceable, codified, contractual legal statement. I'm sure that players "should" do a lot of things that they don't. lol

Now you're being dishonest. I've said he can protest. I'm all for his right to do so. As a private citizen. Not when he's working on his job in uniform, taking the focus from the anthem and trying to make it about his pet political agenda.

I'm saying he should be able to protest whenever he wishes. AND... he should face whatever consequences that might bring. I'm sure that if he were working for Walmart and began protesting in uniform on company time he'd be an at will employee and be instantly fired. But with the NFL, he has a contract. And I'm sure the contract doesn't require him to stand for the anthem, even if the NFL guidelines states that he "should". And as far as the NFL guidelines, they don't require dismissal or disciplinary action. The wording leaves it up to the NFL's discretion as to how it will deal with the issue.

[aegsm76]

Originally Posted by Aquila

You know you're stretching it. It's called a lie now bro. You know that's not what I intended. And this is where EVERY conversation I get in with you guys becomes toxic. You will refuse to hear and accept my clarification. Oh well, I'm not lying. I guess with some folks I'll have to explain everything down to the very minutia up front or they'll get lost in the woods on some preconceived silliness.




I agree that it states that they "should" stand. But since they only say players who don't "may" be disciplined, what they do with players who choose not to stand is entirely up to the NFL. That's just a fact. I mean, you gonna cry, spit, and throw things about the fact that they "should" stand? Until it's written with teeth, the NFL can do as they wish with players who take a knee. And like it or not, they've chosen to be relatively tolerant.




LOL Keep pounding your fists. It doesn't state that those who don't "shall" be disciplined. It's like a general code of conduct statement. It isn't some enforceable, codified, contractual legal statement. I'm sure that players "should" do a lot of things that they don't. lol



I'm saying he should be able to protest whenever he wishes. AND... he should face whatever consequences that might bring. I'm sure that if he were working for Walmart and began protesting in uniform on company time he'd be an at will employee and be instantly fired. But with the NFL, he has a contract. And I'm sure the contract doesn't require him to stand for the anthem, even if the NFL guidelines states that he "should". And as far as the NFL guidelines, they don't require dismissal or disciplinary action. The wording leaves it up to the NFL's discretion as to how it will deal with the issue.

I would guarantee you that the contract states that players will abide by all rules of the nfl guidelines and rules.
But, it leaves it up to the nfl to enforce, which they are not at this point.
I would "bet" that they wished they had enforced it on Kaep at this point.
But, I do not believe they could enforce it now, with out further ramp up from the players.
However, with the fan fallout, it will be hitting their pocket book fairly soon.
And believe me there is massive fan fallout.
Friends I have who are/were diehard nfl fans are no longer going or watching games.
Watching a league die before our eyes.

[n david]

Originally Posted by aegsm76

I would guarantee you that the contract states that players will abide by all rules of the nfl guidelines and rules.
But, it leaves it up to the nfl to enforce, which they are not at this point.
I would "bet" that they wished they had enforced it on Kaep at this point.
But, I do not believe they could enforce it now, with out further ramp up from the players.
However, with the fan fallout, it will be hitting their pocket book fairly soon.
And believe me there is massive fan fallout.
Friends I have who are/were diehard nfl fans are no longer going or watching games.
Watching a league die before our eyes.

This is what happens when liberals try to push their leftist agendas. They poison everything.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Aquila

You know you're stretching it. It's called a lie now bro. You know that's not what I intended. And this is where EVERY conversation I get in with you guys becomes toxic. You will refuse to hear and accept my clarification. Oh well, I'm not lying. I guess with some folks I'll have to explain everything down to the very minutia up front or they'll get lost in the woods on some preconceived silliness.

I'm not stretching anything. I DON'T know that isn't what you intended. All I KNOW is what you actually post in words and sentences. When a person posts that the laws should be changed to require an employer allow employees to exercise their 1A rights, and when you post that they should recognize employees constitutional liberties ... put two and two together. Now, if that's not what you meant and you're now clarifying what you meant to say, so be it.

Originally Posted by Aquila

I agree that it states that they "should" stand. But since they only say players who don't "may" be disciplined, what they do with players who choose not to stand is entirely up to the NFL. That's just a fact. I mean, you gonna cry, spit, and throw things about the fact that they "should" stand? Until it's written with teeth, the NFL can do as they wish with players who take a knee. And like it or not, they've chosen to be relatively tolerant.

I can agree with that. It's up to the NFL to enforce its manual. As I posted earlier, the NFL made a big mistake by not taking this on when Kap first took a knee. Its response is a massive failure, because now it has a rule in its manual which it first did not enforce, and now will be difficult to enforce because it has been allowed for so long. Should the viewers continue to shut off the tv during the games, and should the stadiums continue to lose revenue, the NFL will find its backbone and begin enforcing it. Until then, Goodell and the suits in NYC will sit back and hope owners like Jerry Jones play the "bad guy" role and put a stop to the protests.

Originally Posted by Aquila

LOL Keep pounding your fists. It doesn't state that those who don't "shall" be disciplined. It's like a general code of conduct statement. It isn't some enforceable, codified, contractual legal statement. I'm sure that players "should" do a lot of things that they don't. lol

I never said anything about that. I'm simply stating what the manual says, "they should." There are enforceable penalties attached, but the NFL has chose not to use them. You're the one focused on what "may" means regarding discipline.