More on Skirts

[LOVE JESUS]

Wow!! Almost 16,000 views and 1,080 posts. Hot topic!!! As one lady used to say, Good grief!!!

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by LOVE JESUS

Wow!! Almost 16,000 views and 1,080 posts. Hot topic!!! As one lady used to say, Good grief!!!

It's actually a fun debate.

Christian modesty is an important topic. A lot of Christians ignore it. I'm blessed when I see both sides and how much we care about it, even if we approach it differently.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

OK, you believe that the UPCI/Apostolic movement to be Antichrist system. Allow me to point something out to you. Your words were "Y'all misunderstand any opposition to your system/method to be opposition to Christ himself." This is the definition of antichrist, because as you know antichrist means in the position of Christ or as His opposition. Actually you believe the UPCI and Apostolic Pentecostal movement is Satanic. I don't mean that you believe that they are conjuring up the devil. But the word Satan means adversary.Since you believe the UPCI and Apostolic Pentecostal movement's system/method to be opposition to Christ himself. Therefore you would logically agree they are adversarial to Christ, hence being Satanic as in adversely opposed to Christ.

What is this forum called again? Apostolic Friends Forum?

Lol, this is like Alex Jones level conspiracy connect the dots.

I give a clear post answering your questions and you somehow arrive at the conclusion that I believe and am really saying the UPC is Satanic???????

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Jason B

I believe the way IS narrow.
Salvation is only through faith in the person and work of Jesus Christ. And it is only those who have been regenerated by the Spirit who are truly saved.

Jason, I could be wrong, but something tells me that you'll understand the meaning behind, Ordo Solutis.

Please tell me what you think about this order of redemption (I had to write my soteriological understanding in this form to help my Reformed theology friends understand the deeper soteriological aspects of "Apostolic salvation"):

Order of Redemption:

1. Corporate Election (God's choice to save whosoever will enter into the body of Christ)

2. Predestination (God's predetermined glory for the church)

3. Atonement (Christ's work of satisfying the Law's condemnation for all who will enter the church)

4. Propitiation (Christ's satisfying God's wrath against sin for all who will enter the church)

5. Prevenient Grace (the Holy Spirit's drawing of the lost to Christ Jesus through both an inner and an outer calling)

6. Conversion (repentance & water baptism)

7. Justification (imputed righteousness received by faith at Conversion)

8. Regeneration (being born of the Spirit as a result of the baptism of the Holy Spirit)

9. Adoption (membership in God's family through the abiding presence of the Holy Spirit)

10. Sanctification & Holiness (growing into Christlikeness by taking part in the divine nature provided by the abiding presence of the Holy Spirit)

11. Death (the cessation of physical life after which one enters the intermediate state wherein the soul is present with the Lord in Heaven awaiting resurrection & glorification)

12. Resurrection & Glorification (receiving a resurrected and glorified body fashioned perfectly after the image of Christ)

It should be noted, the UPCI wanders into the wilderness on point 10, making sanctification based on various legalisms instead of embracing holiness as an ontological reality.

[Aquila]

I've attached an image of the common attire I've seen worn by young women in the UPCI. In our fellowship, her modesty would be borderline.

[Aquila]

I talked about this subject with a couple elders in our house church last night. In our fellowship we approach Deuteronomy 22:5 as being more about the perversion associated with crossdressing. So, we admittedly don't see this verse as forbidding women's pants on women. It would forbid women from wearing attire specifically designed for men and men from wearing attire specifically designed for women. Clothing that is gender neutral such as regular T-shirts are acceptable on both genders.

However, our elders do believe in biblical modesty. Here, with regards to women, they agree that an appropriately fitting dress or skirt is generally more modest than many popular styles of pants or jeans. However, generally speaking, women's jeans or pants are not strictly forbidden or condemned. We encourage a culturally relevant pursuit of modesty. The practice of Christian modesty is seen as an act of personal devotion and sanctification.

Attached you'll find images describing our understanding of modesty and three examples of what we understand as modest and acceptable attire with regards to women in our fellowship.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I've attached an image of the common attire I've seen worn by young women in the UPCI. In our fellowship, her modesty would be borderline.

Why would this be borderline?

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Jason, I could be wrong, but something tells me that you'll understand the meaning behind, Ordo Solutis.

Please tell me what you think about this order of redemption (I had to write my soteriological understanding in this form to help my Reformed theology friends understand the deeper soteriological aspects of "Apostolic salvation"):

Order of Redemption:

1. Corporate Election (God's choice to save whosoever will enter into the body of Christ)

2. Predestination (God's predetermined glory for the church)

3. Atonement (Christ's work of satisfying the Law's condemnation for all who will enter the church)

4. Propitiation (Christ's satisfying God's wrath against sin for all who will enter the church)

5. Prevenient Grace (the Holy Spirit's drawing of the lost to Christ Jesus through both an inner and an outer calling)

6. Conversion (repentance & water baptism)

7. Justification (imputed righteousness received by faith at Conversion)

8. Regeneration (being born of the Spirit as a result of the baptism of the Holy Spirit)

9. Adoption (membership in God's family through the abiding presence of the Holy Spirit)

10. Sanctification & Holiness (growing into Christlikeness by taking part in the divine nature provided by the abiding presence of the Holy Spirit)

11. Death (the cessation of physical life after which one enters the intermediate state wherein the soul is present with the Lord in Heaven awaiting resurrection & glorification)

12. Resurrection & Glorification (receiving a resurrected and glorified body fashioned perfectly after the image of Christ)


It should be noted, the UPCI wanders into the wilderness on point 10, making sanctification based on various legalisms instead of embracing holiness as an ontological reality.

I don't have any real problems with this. I do believe 6-9 are all distinct acts, but happen essentially simultaneously and instantaneously from our perspective. I would see it as error to separate 7 & 8 to such a degree they can be see as different events that can take place weeks, months, or even years apart from each other, as the water/spirit doctrine does. I do believe you cant have any of 6-9 without having them all. IOW its impossible to be justified but not regenerate (again, water/spirit doctrine).

As for 1&2, I really dont have strong opinions on election and predestination yet. Those are still things I'm wrestling with various passages and possible interpretations. I'm not convinced that the calvinistic view is correct, in fact it has major holes IMO.

But overall I'd find a lot of agreement with this post.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

That's not true, that is just your perception. Also you haven't been to every UPCI or Apostolic church. So, you are limited only to the one who were associated with. Bad experiences send people from Baptist to Pentecost, from Pentecost to Baptist to the hodgepodge of the re-examiner church. Ever learning and never coming to the knowledge of Truth. Don't get me wrong, re-examining is a part of learning. Just don't think everyone draws the same conclusion you do. Also, gleaning from the heros of Protestant movement is re-examining. It is called shopping for answers. Which Jesus called the blind leading the blind.

Nah. Y'all really can not understand why people leave, it always gets reduced to 1)bitterness or 2)bad experience. It never truly dawns on y'all that maybe just maybe someone actually likes being pentecostal, enjoys the worship, the fellowship, the familiarity, but just simply leaves because they believe the Bible teaches something else. It always goes back to bitterness or bad experience. You are the second person to tell me that this week. The other, none other than DKB himself on a facebook thread about worship styles.

Let me make it plain. I don't dislike the UPC or UPCers. I am disappointed the UPC/greater oneness movement is not what I thought it was. I thought and believed for years it was the restoration of the apostles doctrine and practice, the true church on the earth, the channel God would use to bring endtime revival and the restoration of true Christianity. I believed all those things, I was not unhappy. I was not hurt. I was not mistreated, and I whole heartedly believed the doctrine.

There was no fishing for answers, no looking for a way out. It just happened over time as I studied God's Word that He lead me out.

It has little to nothing to do with protestant heros. You know the only protestants I had read before leaving the OP movement was William Barclays commentaries, who is a very liberal presbyterian, that I dont agree with on much dogma, but he is good for historical information. I read a book on The Sermon on the Mount by DA Carson, and I read several commentaries by Warren Weirsbe. Not a ton of "heroes" there, and not a lot of influence either. None of those guys are particularly focused on doctrine or say a ton that would be seen as an assault on pentecostalism. It wasn't the heros who moved me, it was the scripture. Particularly the NT, especially Romans, the Gospels, especially John, Galatians, Colossians, Ephesians, and 1 John.

I dont think I read a MacArthur book until 2010, either right before or after I left. It was called "Faith Works: The Gospel according to the apostles". It was a polemic against easy believism, not a theological treatise on salvation.

I've since read a few more books from MacArthur, who is one one my favorite authors, but only about 6 or 8 in total, and only his commentary on Romans.

Beside that, I've got a book of Jonathan Edwards sermons, only read about 60 pages of it. I've read parts of a few Charles Spurgeon sermond, but not much. (Those guys sermons go forever, it hard reading).

I've never read anything from John Calvin or Martin Luther except half of Luthers small catecism. I've got 2 books by John Owen, I've started one ( The mortification of sin) but never finished it, and havent even opened the other (the death of death in the death of Christ). I've never read a systematic theology, but did read most if ""bible doctrine" by wayne grudem, which is a summary of his systematic theology. Thats pretty much it, and all that is after leaving the oneness movement, not before.

I mostly read the scripture and commentaries, or books on church history.

My "re-examining" has been rooted in scripture. As usual, you are projecting things you really don't know anything about.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by n david

Why would this be borderline?

Primarily how tight it is. It's not a hard and fast "rule". It's just most women in our fellowship group wouldn't wear anything that tight. But beyond that, most of her bases are covered.