For anyone interested:
If you believe "God picks some rulers specifically", can you elaborate on how anyone could know which ones that would be? How does one go about determining if a ruler has been, or has not been, raised up by God to their position?
"Proverbs ch 8 doesn't really mean that God sets up rulers."
Then what does it really mean?
Proverbs 8:12-16 KJV I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions. (13) The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate. (14) Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom: I am understanding; I have strength. (15) By me kings reign, and princes decree justice. (16) By me princes rule, and nobles, even all the judges of the earth.
There is both a general application, and a specific application, of this passage.
1. General. Speaking in general terms, this is simply saying that kings reign and princes decree justice (righteousness) by means of wisdom, which of course comes from God. So the application is that any ruler who exercises justice and righteousness and right judgment does so by wisdom which comes from God.
2. Specific. Speaking in more specific terms, Christ is the power and wisdom of God (1 Corinthians ch 1:24, 30), and therefore kings reign and princes rule by Him (that is, by His permission and prerogative).This is in keeping with Matthew ch 28:18 where Christ declared that all authority in heaven
and in earth has been given to Him, from which it follows that nobody rules or reigns outside of Christ's authorization. And this is further reinforced and confirmed by the apostle Paul who taught us in Romans ch 13:1, 4, and 6 that all ruling authorities are ordained by God and that "there is no power (authority) but of God".
That alone refutes the notion that anyone in any position of
authority got there by any means other than the Providence of God.
"But in Daniel ch 2 it says God not only raises up kings, but changes the times and seasons. So if we believe God really does raise up all rulers, then we must also believe God literally and personally changes the seasons from one to the next, all the time."
Besides the fact that this objection seems to imply God is either not capable of Providentially ordering and managing the universe, or that God is not concerned with doing such, let's look more closely at the passage(s) in question here:
Daniel 2:20-21 KJV Daniel answered and said, Blessed be the name of God for ever and ever: for wisdom and might are his: (21) And he changeth the times and the seasons: he removeth kings, and setteth up kings: he giveth wisdom unto the wise, and knowledge to them that know understanding:
God changes the times and seasons. This does not refer to summer, fall, winter, spring, but to the "times and seasons" of human societies, and God most certainly is affirmed by the prophet to change them. Further, the prophet affirms that God removes kings, and sets up kings. To deny this is to deny the inspiration of the Bible and to fall into atheism.
But there are some who say He only sets up "some" kings, and removes "some" kings, but not others. Did the prophet say God removes and sets up SOME kings? No, he did not. And he goes on to affirm that he meant what he said about God's superintendance of human government:
Nebuchadnezzar had a dream in which it was said to him:
Daniel 4:17 KJV This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.
Daniel gave the interpretation of Nebuchadnezzar's dream and confirmed what was told to the king:
Daniel 4:24-26 KJV This is the interpretation, O king, and this is the decree of the most High, which is come upon my lord the king: (25) That they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field, and they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and they shall wet thee with the dew of heaven, and seven times shall pass over thee, till thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will. (26) And whereas they commanded to leave the stump of the tree roots; thy kingdom shall be sure unto thee, after that thou shalt have known that the heavens do rule.
Notice: The Divine Message from God was that "The Most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever He will".
This is nothing less than the plain declaration that God rules over human society, and gives it to whoever He chooses. This necessarily means that anyone in a position of authority in human society has been given that position by God. There is no way to limit this declaration to "some" rulers, but not others. If a ruler can come into power APART from the authorization of God, then the Most High does NOT in fact "rule in the kingdom of men" and does NOT in fact "give it to whomsoever He will." To deny this is to deny the plain statements of Scripture, and would be nothing less than practical atheism.
"If we take this literally, we should also take the idea that God gives wisdom literally, and it would mean that every child learning his ABCs has the Spirit of God hovering over them teaching them, and every student getting his degree requires the Spirit hovering over them, etc."
Wisdom and understanding come from God:
Exodus 28:3 KJV And thou shalt speak unto all that are wise hearted, whom I have filled with the spirit of wisdom, that they may make Aaron's garments to consecrate him, that he may minister unto me in the priest's office.
ALL who are "wise-hearted" got it from God. Who can deny this? Who can deny the plain declaration of God Himself? Just in case one might miss it, He repeats the claim:
Exodus 31:6 KJV And I, behold, I have given with him Aholiab, the son of Ahisamach, of the tribe of Dan: and in the hearts of all that are wise hearted I have put wisdom, that they may make all that I have commanded thee;
In case anyone missed it twice, He speaks yet a third time:
Exodus 35:35 KJV Them hath he filled with wisdom of heart, to work all manner of work, of the engraver, and of the cunning workman, and of the embroiderer, in blue, and in purple, in scarlet, and in fine linen, and of the weaver, even of them that do any work, and of those that devise cunning work.
Concerning children learning their ABCs, Jesus said this:
Matthew 10:30 KJV But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
And James said this:
James 1:16-17 KJV Do not err, my beloved brethren. (17) Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
Since wisdom and understanding comes from God, and the ability to read is a good thing, and even the very hairs of our head are numbered by God, it follows that God is interested in the minutest details of our being. God forms us in the womb, God controls the womb, God shapes us and brings us forth, God gives us capacities and abilities, and makes knowledge available to us. God controls our circumstances, He determines into what family we were born, in what society, in what time, in what culture. He determines how many hairs we have and keeps track of each and every one.
So, it is perfectly Biblical to accept the idea that God sovereignly superintends and oversees our development, and the development of every human being, from learning how to eat, how to say "Mama", all the way to our salvation, justification, and glorification, and everything in between. And this applies to every human on the planet who ever lived, lives, or will live.
To deny this would be nothing less than atheism.
"But God said He is the Lord who heals all thy diseases. Some people don't get healed, however. So God sets up some kings but not all, just like healing."
This involves an error in reasoning. The analogy would be "Yet some don't get healed. Some kings aren't set up by God, therefore some healings aren't caused by God." Does anyone believe anyone besides God can heal diseases? Is God in competition with anyone else in the field of healing?
I am the LORD who heals ALL THY DISEASES, meaning any disease that is healed, is necessarily healed by God. Further, God heals all the diseases we have. Yet God also promised that if His people sinned, He would send plagues and diseases upon them. Therefore, God has not promised to heal every single human being's diseases at all times and all places. And therefore, the analogy is false and misleading.
The fact is the Bible teaches that God rules over all things, there is no authority except what God puts in place, God appoints whoever He desires over human society.
This is not the "divine right of kings", however, for nobody has a right to sin and do wrong. The divine right belief was the idea that since God established the king as sovereign over the nation, the king could do whatever he wanted and was accountable to nobody. But that is not how it works. The king is accountable to God, as are all rulers, magistrates, judges, leaders, janitors, shoeshine boys, and forum posters. Those in authority are put there expressly for the purpose of establishing righteousness. If they fail to do so, they will suffer the consequences, and oftentimes those consequences involve God removing them from power.
If a people suffer under an evil tyrant, one has to ask why? Simple: God ordains rulers whom He thinks is best for carrying out His ultimate purposes. It may be that a nation of people are sinful, and God sends correction and punishment in the form of a tyrant (or even a foreign conqueror). It may be that God raises up a leader who by his own willful sin and depravity descends into rebellion and iniquity and oppression, and so God allows such a one to rule in order to demonstrate to all and sundry the evils that result from rulers who will not obey God, in order to teach people the necessity of godly and righteous government. It may be that God wishes to bring liberty to a people, but cannot do it until they have been made to feel just how painful despotism and unrighteous government really is, so that they will be moved to throw off said tyranny.
In any event, God rules in the kingdom of men, and appoints over it whoever He wills.
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