Refuting Christian Zionism

[houston]

Gap Theory in Daniel?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Well, I wouldn't put it that way.

Throughout the Old Testament we see God's corrective judgments upon His people. These judgments were designed to bring them to repentance. That is the purpose of the Great Tribulation. Only, the entire world, especially the Jews, are being called to repent and believe on Christ Jesus before it is too late.

Please show me scripture that states this is the purpose of the great trib,. I read in Matt 24 the great trib was for the purpose of judging in finality the sins of those who crucified the Lord. I see no concept of doing it to get them to repent. I see it as a final judgment for those people in this life.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Okay, so I thought about how to approach this, and decided to do it in a 'lesson' format. So far I've got the first two lessons written, I have ten more to go plus two appendices.



I should have it all typed up and proof read in the next couple of days, Lord willing.

It will be Twelve Lessons in Apostolic Eschatology. It will be somewhat light and easy to read and follow (I'm not writing a magnum opus or a doctoral thesis here), and will provide an overview of prophecy up to the Revelation. It will NOT include any kind of indepth analysis of Revelation itself because a foundation has to be laid first, and besides Revelation is a large prophecy that would need a thread (likely multiple threads) of it's own. However, I will touch on certain of the major themes of Revelation, so as not to leave it altogether untouched.

Although I tend to use the term 'historicist' or 'continuous historical' in describing how I understand prophecy, I do want to emphasise that I use those terms for lack of any better term that has any meaning. 'Apostolic Eschatology', or 'Kingdom Eschatology', or 'Christ-centric Eschatology', or 'Biblical Eschatology', or 'Covenant Eschatology', or 'Amazing Prophecies of the Bible!' all sound great but don't actually convey any distinct information. Lots of people use those same terms, and use them to mean very different things. So for now I'm just sticking with 'historical' or some variation of the term, as it expresses my understanding that history is the outworking of prophecy.

It will include some well-meaning challenges to both preterists and futurists, but will be primarily focused on presenting the Bible's own doctrine of prophecy rather than polemics against this or that -ism. I would ask our resident eschatologists, of whatever persuasion, to simply consider, examine, and share. I have always had a feeling that all our -isms are somewhat hand-me-down (whether we realise it or not), and we should be engaged with each other in a search for truth. We all have something to bring to the table, and hopefully none of us are already so full that we can't enjoy the meal.

Malachi 3:16-18 Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name. (17) And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him. (18) Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.

Just an update: I've got chapters 1 through 4 written up so far. So that's about one third of the way completed. I expect to have it finished probably by Sunday or Monday. I will proof read it and give myself one day for corrections, emendations, editorial changes, tightening it up here and there, etc, and formatting. so far I've got about 25 pages written in a 16pt font in Open Office, so it's looking like it's going to be about 80 some odd pages. I guess that'll be a doozie of a thread starter, eh? lol

I intend to include a link to a pdf copy so anyone who wants to read it offline can just click and print it out.

BTW, is there a capability of printing a pdf in an enlarged font size, irrespective of the font size it was created and saved in? Anyone know about pdf creation? I'd like to have the capability of anyone taking the pdf and printing it out as big or as small as they need...

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Please show me scripture that states this is the purpose of the great trib,. I read in Matt 24 the great trib was for the purpose of judging in finality the sins of those who crucified the Lord. I see no concept of doing it to get them to repent. I see it as a final judgment for those people in this life.

It is written:

Jeremiah 30:1-24 (ESV)
1 The word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord: 2 “Thus says the Lord, the God of Israel: Write in a book all the words that I have spoken to you. 3 For behold, days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will restore the fortunes of my people, Israel and Judah, says the Lord, and I will bring them back to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall take possession of it.”

4 These are the words that the Lord spoke concerning Israel and Judah:



5
“Thus says the Lord:
We have heard a cry of panic,
of terror, and no peace.

6
Ask now, and see,
can a man bear a child?
Why then do I see every man
with his hands on his stomach like a woman in labor?
Why has every face turned pale?

7
Alas! That day is so great
there is none like it;
it is a time of distress for Jacob;
yet he shall be saved out of it.

8 “And it shall come to pass in that day, declares the Lord of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off your neck, and I will burst your bonds, and foreigners shall no more make a servant of him.[a] 9 But they shall serve the Lord their God and David their king, whom I will raise up for them.



10
“Then fear not, O Jacob my servant, declares the Lord,
nor be dismayed, O Israel;
for behold, I will save you from far away,
and your offspring from the land of their captivity.
Jacob shall return and have quiet and ease,
and none shall make him afraid.

11
For I am with you to save you,
declares the Lord;
I will make a full end of all the nations
among whom I scattered you,
but of you I will not make a full end.
I will discipline you in just measure,
and I will by no means leave you unpunished.



12
“For thus says the Lord:
Your hurt is incurable,
and your wound is grievous.

13
There is none to uphold your cause,
no medicine for your wound,
no healing for you.

14
All your lovers have forgotten you;
they care nothing for you;
for I have dealt you the blow of an enemy,
the punishment of a merciless foe,
because your guilt is great,
because your sins are flagrant.

15
Why do you cry out over your hurt?
Your pain is incurable.
Because your guilt is great,
because your sins are flagrant,
I have done these things to you.

16
Therefore all who devour you shall be devoured,
and all your foes, every one of them, shall go into captivity;
those who plunder you shall be plundered,
and all who prey on you I will make a prey.

17
For I will restore health to you,
and your wounds I will heal,
declares the Lord,
because they have called you an outcast:
‘It is Zion, for whom no one cares!’



18
“Thus says the Lord:
Behold, I will restore the fortunes of the tents of Jacob
and have compassion on his dwellings;
the city shall be rebuilt on its mound,
and the palace shall stand where it used to be.

19
Out of them shall come songs of thanksgiving,
and the voices of those who celebrate.
I will multiply them, and they shall not be few;
I will make them honored, and they shall not be small.

20
Their children shall be as they were of old,
and their congregation shall be established before me,
and I will punish all who oppress them.

21
Their prince shall be one of themselves;
their ruler shall come out from their midst;
I will make him draw near, and he shall approach me,
for who would dare of himself to approach me?
declares the Lord.

22
And you shall be my people,
and I will be your God.”



23
Behold the storm of the Lord!
Wrath has gone forth,
a whirling tempest;
it will burst upon the head of the wicked.

24
The fierce anger of the Lord will not turn back
until he has executed and accomplished
the intentions of his mind.
In the latter days you will understand this.

In the Revelation we also read that 144,000 firstfruits of Israel are sealed and protected from judgment:

Revelation 7:1-8
1 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, that no wind might blow on earth or sea or against any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, with the seal of the living God, and he called with a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm earth and sea, 3 saying, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.” 4 And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:



5
12,000 from the tribe of Judah were sealed,
12,000 from the tribe of Reuben,
12,000 from the tribe of Gad,

6
12,000 from the tribe of Asher,
12,000 from the tribe of Naphtali,
12,000 from the tribe of Manasseh,

7
12,000 from the tribe of Simeon,
12,000 from the tribe of Levi,
12,000 from the tribe of Issachar,

8
12,000 from the tribe of Zebulun,
12,000 from the tribe of Joseph,
12,000 from the tribe of Benjamin were sealed.

This is understood among Futurists to be the, Time of Jacob's Trouble.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Aquila

It is written:

Jeremiah 30:1-24 (ESV)
1 The word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord: 2 “Thus says the Lord, the God of Israel: Write in a book all the words that I have spoken to you. 3 For behold, days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will restore the fortunes of my people, Israel and Judah, says the Lord, and I will bring them back to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall take possession of it.”

4 These are the words that the Lord spoke concerning Israel and Judah:



5
“Thus says the Lord:
We have heard a cry of panic,
of terror, and no peace.

6
Ask now, and see,
can a man bear a child?
Why then do I see every man
with his hands on his stomach like a woman in labor?
Why has every face turned pale?

7
Alas! That day is so great
there is none like it;
it is a time of distress for Jacob;
yet he shall be saved out of it.

8 “And it shall come to pass in that day, declares the Lord of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off your neck, and I will burst your bonds, and foreigners shall no more make a servant of him.[a] 9 But they shall serve the Lord their God and David their king, whom I will raise up for them.



10
“Then fear not, O Jacob my servant, declares the Lord,
nor be dismayed, O Israel;
for behold, I will save you from far away,
and your offspring from the land of their captivity.
Jacob shall return and have quiet and ease,
and none shall make him afraid.

11
For I am with you to save you,
declares the Lord;
I will make a full end of all the nations
among whom I scattered you,
but of you I will not make a full end.
I will discipline you in just measure,
and I will by no means leave you unpunished.



12
“For thus says the Lord:
Your hurt is incurable,
and your wound is grievous.

13
There is none to uphold your cause,
no medicine for your wound,
no healing for you.

14
All your lovers have forgotten you;
they care nothing for you;
for I have dealt you the blow of an enemy,
the punishment of a merciless foe,
because your guilt is great,
because your sins are flagrant.

15
Why do you cry out over your hurt?
Your pain is incurable.
Because your guilt is great,
because your sins are flagrant,
I have done these things to you.

16
Therefore all who devour you shall be devoured,
and all your foes, every one of them, shall go into captivity;
those who plunder you shall be plundered,
and all who prey on you I will make a prey.

17
For I will restore health to you,
and your wounds I will heal,
declares the Lord,
because they have called you an outcast:
‘It is Zion, for whom no one cares!’



18
“Thus says the Lord:
Behold, I will restore the fortunes of the tents of Jacob
and have compassion on his dwellings;
the city shall be rebuilt on its mound,
and the palace shall stand where it used to be.

19
Out of them shall come songs of thanksgiving,
and the voices of those who celebrate.
I will multiply them, and they shall not be few;
I will make them honored, and they shall not be small.

20
Their children shall be as they were of old,
and their congregation shall be established before me,
and I will punish all who oppress them.

21
Their prince shall be one of themselves;
their ruler shall come out from their midst;
I will make him draw near, and he shall approach me,
for who would dare of himself to approach me?
declares the Lord.

22
And you shall be my people,
and I will be your God.”



23
Behold the storm of the Lord!
Wrath has gone forth,
a whirling tempest;
it will burst upon the head of the wicked.

24
The fierce anger of the Lord will not turn back
until he has executed and accomplished
the intentions of his mind.
In the latter days you will understand this.

In the Revelation we also read that 144,000 firstfruits of Israel are sealed and protected from judgment:

Revelation 7:1-8
1 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, that no wind might blow on earth or sea or against any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, with the seal of the living God, and he called with a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm earth and sea, 3 saying, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.” 4 And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:



5
12,000 from the tribe of Judah were sealed,
12,000 from the tribe of Reuben,
12,000 from the tribe of Gad,

6
12,000 from the tribe of Asher,
12,000 from the tribe of Naphtali,
12,000 from the tribe of Manasseh,

7
12,000 from the tribe of Simeon,
12,000 from the tribe of Levi,
12,000 from the tribe of Issachar,

8
12,000 from the tribe of Zebulun,
12,000 from the tribe of Joseph,
12,000 from the tribe of Benjamin were sealed.

This is understood among Futurists to be the, Time of Jacob's Trouble.

How does Jeremiah 30:1-24 and Revelation 7:1-8 work together? Please explain. Also how do these verses prove or disprove the topic of this thread?

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

How does Jeremiah 30:1-24 and Revelation 7:1-8 work together? Please explain. Also how do these verses prove or disprove the topic of this thread?

Seems to me people forget the time that these prophecies were given to the nation. And what came.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

Seems to me people forget the time that these prophecies were given to the nation. And what came.

Aquila sort of reminds me of an Ecclesiastic Luddite, but only when it comes to the opposing team. Forgetting the time? The time when these things occurred, should be taken into consideration. But they are mocked by individuals, such as my fellow poster. He claimed that all historicist and Preterist eschatology is anchored in history books. Yet, steps on his own religious rake of hypocrisy, getting busted in the face with his claims that the Mahdi and ISIS are Biblical? Preterist covered by the dust of their history books, but Futurists drowning in a sea of ever changing current events, and using mass media as their peep stone?

What a laugh!

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Aquila

It is written:

Jeremiah 30:1-24 (ESV)
1 The word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord: 2 “Thus says the Lord, the God of Israel: Write in a book all the words that I have spoken to you. 3 For behold, days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will restore the fortunes of my people, Israel and Judah, says the Lord, and I will bring them back to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall take possession of it.”

4 These are the words that the Lord spoke concerning Israel and Judah:



5
“Thus says the Lord:
We have heard a cry of panic,
of terror, and no peace.

6
Ask now, and see,
can a man bear a child?
Why then do I see every man
with his hands on his stomach like a woman in labor?
Why has every face turned pale?

7
Alas! That day is so great
there is none like it;
it is a time of distress for Jacob;
yet he shall be saved out of it.

8 “And it shall come to pass in that day, declares the Lord of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off your neck, and I will burst your bonds, and foreigners shall no more make a servant of him.[a] 9 But they shall serve the Lord their God and David their king, whom I will raise up for them.



10
“Then fear not, O Jacob my servant, declares the Lord,
nor be dismayed, O Israel;
for behold, I will save you from far away,
and your offspring from the land of their captivity.
Jacob shall return and have quiet and ease,
and none shall make him afraid.

11
For I am with you to save you,
declares the Lord;
I will make a full end of all the nations
among whom I scattered you,
but of you I will not make a full end.
I will discipline you in just measure,
and I will by no means leave you unpunished.



12
“For thus says the Lord:
Your hurt is incurable,
and your wound is grievous.

13
There is none to uphold your cause,
no medicine for your wound,
no healing for you.

14
All your lovers have forgotten you;
they care nothing for you;
for I have dealt you the blow of an enemy,
the punishment of a merciless foe,
because your guilt is great,
because your sins are flagrant.

15
Why do you cry out over your hurt?
Your pain is incurable.
Because your guilt is great,
because your sins are flagrant,
I have done these things to you.

16
Therefore all who devour you shall be devoured,
and all your foes, every one of them, shall go into captivity;
those who plunder you shall be plundered,
and all who prey on you I will make a prey.

17
For I will restore health to you,
and your wounds I will heal,
declares the Lord,
because they have called you an outcast:
‘It is Zion, for whom no one cares!’



18
“Thus says the Lord:
Behold, I will restore the fortunes of the tents of Jacob
and have compassion on his dwellings;
the city shall be rebuilt on its mound,
and the palace shall stand where it used to be.

19
Out of them shall come songs of thanksgiving,
and the voices of those who celebrate.
I will multiply them, and they shall not be few;
I will make them honored, and they shall not be small.

20
Their children shall be as they were of old,
and their congregation shall be established before me,
and I will punish all who oppress them.

21
Their prince shall be one of themselves;
their ruler shall come out from their midst;
I will make him draw near, and he shall approach me,
for who would dare of himself to approach me?
declares the Lord.

22
And you shall be my people,
and I will be your God.”



23
Behold the storm of the Lord!
Wrath has gone forth,
a whirling tempest;
it will burst upon the head of the wicked.

24
The fierce anger of the Lord will not turn back
until he has executed and accomplished
the intentions of his mind.
In the latter days you will understand this.

In the Revelation we also read that 144,000 firstfruits of Israel are sealed and protected from judgment:

Revelation 7:1-8
1 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, that no wind might blow on earth or sea or against any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, with the seal of the living God, and he called with a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm earth and sea, 3 saying, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.” 4 And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:



5
12,000 from the tribe of Judah were sealed,
12,000 from the tribe of Reuben,
12,000 from the tribe of Gad,

6
12,000 from the tribe of Asher,
12,000 from the tribe of Naphtali,
12,000 from the tribe of Manasseh,

7
12,000 from the tribe of Simeon,
12,000 from the tribe of Levi,
12,000 from the tribe of Issachar,

8
12,000 from the tribe of Zebulun,
12,000 from the tribe of Joseph,
12,000 from the tribe of Benjamin were sealed.

This is understood among Futurists to be the, Time of Jacob's Trouble.

You raise an important note. Notice the sealed 144,000 are protected and do not get any wrath. That's not suffering and getting punished to return.

There was time to repent for the others.

When Jerusalem was judged all through the bible, it was not until they crucified the Lord that they "filled the cup". This brought on a crossing-the-line sort of situation. They came back before. Judged, and came back again. But the individuals destroyed were lost.

But when she crossed the line and filled the cup, enough was enough. This destruction would be unlike previous ones. But grace allotted 40 years for repentance. before the judgment came it was a generation. And that's why we read references in Revelation that "they repented not." And Peter reached out to them FIRST in Acts 2 --- the ones of Jerusalem and Judaea, the two places Jesus said believers living their should flee to mountains. And Peter told them to save themselves from that untoward GENERATION... the same generation Jesus said would see all those judgments.

And those who refused to repent were destroyed. No coming back from that.

And that's why the temple cannot be rebuilt. They tried in the 300's and an earthquake stopped it.

And now the Jerusalem God is concerned about is the NEW JERUSALEM, the church (Heb 12:22).

So, tribulation sees saints protected, but the sinners are wiped out and lost in destruction forever. Things changed after the cross, bro.**