when i die

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Jesus said when we would be with him:

John 14:1-4

1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. 4And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

We will be together when Jesus comes.

I do not believe John 14 was speaking of our future, but the place he prepared was a position in the body of Christ. Mansions are the same greek word for abode which is used later in the same chapter speaking of the Father dwelling in us as His abode. He went to the cross to prepare that place for us. That where HE IS, not where he would be, there we would be.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Carl

Read the book on Conditional Immortality which Esaias has provided the link to. Once you understand what a soul is it makes sense. Consciousness requires a body that is living and breathing. The soul is not a separate entity within or apart from the body which can exist disembodied.

I disagree. The soul is more than blood.

The soul is the faculty of self-awareness in us all. Spirit provides the consciousness and awareness for the soul of the spiritual realm. Body is the consciousness and awareness for the soul of the physical realm. SOUL IS YOU. Your mind and will. Spirit is the window for the soul to the spiritual for us to relate and interact with it. Body is the window of the soul to the physical for us to relate and interact with it. Adam was a SOUL with a body and a spirit.

Soul and spirit can be separated. Heb 4:12.

Adam was a living soul. He was not blood.

When the bible says the life of the flesh is in the blood, it mean just that. Life OF THE FLESH. The FLESH is not the soul. Flesh is the body. FLESH has life and it is the blood. But the SOUL spoken of in context to Adam being a soul is not speaking of the life of the FLESH.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by Esaias

To you, you will appear before the judgment seat of Christ, it will be Resurrection Day.

To everyone else, you will "sleep in Jesus" until we all get to that Day, too.

That is about as simply put Biblical explanation as you can get on this subject...

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I disagree. The soul is more than blood.

The soul is the faculty of self-awareness in us all. Spirit provides the consciousness and awareness for the soul of the spiritual realm. Body is the consciousness and awareness for the soul of the physical realm. SOUL IS YOU. Your mind and will. Spirit is the window for the soul to the spiritual for us to relate and interact with it. Body is the window of the soul to the physical for us to relate and interact with it. Adam was a SOUL with a body and a spirit.

Soul and spirit can be separated. Heb 4:12.

Adam was a living soul. He was not blood.

When the bible says the life of the flesh is in the blood, it mean just that. Life OF THE FLESH. The FLESH is not the soul. Flesh is the body. FLESH has life and it is the blood. But the SOUL spoken of in context to Adam being a soul is not speaking of the life of the FLESH.

What do you think happens when one dies, in Christ, or not?

[bishoph]

When we die a physical death, we enter eternity. Eternity is timeless, in other words there is no measurement of time in eternity. Time is a measurement used in the earth for finite man.

That said, because there is no time in eternity, when we close our eyes in this world we open them in the eternal, and would be immediately at the judgment. Hundreds or thousands of years could have elapsed in the finite world but there would be no realization of that time in eternity.

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by bishoph

When we die a physical death, we enter eternity. Eternity is timeless, in other words there is no measurement of time in eternity. Time is a measurement used in the earth for finite man.

That said, because there is no time in eternity, when we close our eyes in this world we open them in the eternal, and would be immediately at the judgment. Hundreds or thousands of years could have elapsed in the finite world but there would be no realization of that time in eternity.

I here Vesta Mangun saying *If I have not done well, you can't say well done*

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I do not believe John 14 was speaking of our future, but the place he prepared was a position in the body of Christ. Mansions are the same greek word for abode which is used later in the same chapter speaking of the Father dwelling in us as His abode. He went to the cross to prepare that place for us. That where HE IS, not where he would be, there we would be.

Lets try again. When will we BE WITH THE LORD?

Note this awesome teaching by Paul about when we will see our dead loved ones again.

13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

What a clear cut scripture portion! THREE TIMES in three verses Paul says the dead ARE ASLEEP!

Note there is not a single thought that this is just talking about DEAD BODIES!

It simply speaks of THE DEAD. Not the dead BODIES!

In verse 17 Paul tells us AGAIN....the same thing Jesus told us in John 14:3 that THEN at the coming of Christ WE WILL EVER BE WITH THE LORD!

Then Paul finishes off in verse 18 by exhorting the saints to "comfort one another with THESE WORDS"!

THESE WORDS.

Not other words like "you will go straight to Heaven to the arms of Jesus!".

No. Those are false made up words with no Apostolic authority.

The resurrection of the dead is the HOPE OF THE SAINTS.

It is the true gospel or "good news".

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

What do you think happens when one dies, in Christ, or not?

As I noted earlier, one who dies in Christ leaves his natural body, which is the only thing that dies really, and his spirit and soul goes to glory with the Lord. During that period after having left the body, we are naked and willing to be clothed upon with a new body. That new body is a temple compared to the mortal body that is a tabernacle/tent, due to the immortal body's glorified nature. But until the resurrection occurs we are not with a body. And we are in heaven.

But heaven is not made for man.

Psalms 115:16 KJV The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD'S: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.

This was stated long after Adam lost the Garden after he was first given dominion over the earth but then sinned. So, we know the mandate for Adam to have the earth still stands even after man sinned. And it is restored through the cross. The only thing is time between the cross and resurrection for that to be fulling installed again.

God gave the earth and its dominion to Adam. And without a body we are away from the earth.

So, the resurrection sees us get our bodies back, but immortal ones instead of mortal, and we will rule on the earth forevermore as God initially intended for mankind with Adam. That plan for man to rule the earth as God rules heaven has not been abandoned as if we are to live forevermore in heaven.

Was Adam meant to die and go to heaven? No.

We are returned to that prefall state Adam had and are given dominion over the world.

So other resurrection gives us back our earth-suits -- bodies -- only they are immortal. And we leave heaven and go back to earth where God intended us to rule.

I believe we were meant to have God's life in us, as Adam should have eaten of the fruit of life, so that God is in us as His temples. And he manifests through us into the physical realm and sees his will done as we Co-RULE with Him over the physical realm.

This going to heaven forever idea is not in the bible, but is only in hymns and songs. It's really a songbook theology.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Lets try again. When will we BE WITH THE LORD?

EXACTLY. With the Lord! And wherever He said HE IS, is where we would be. THE BODY OF CHRIST.

Read context carefully.

John 14:2-10 KJV In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. (3) And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. (4) And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know. (5) Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way? (6) Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. (7) If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. (8) Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. (9) Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? (10) Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.


After saying the Father has a house, Jesus later says the Father DWELLETH IN HIM. JESUS IS THAT HOUSE. The Body of Christ.

When He said where HE IS, shall we be also, He said that HE IS THE FATHER'S HOUSE and we shall become part of that house. So, the FATHER IS IN US as well.

Note this awesome teaching by Paul about when we will see our dead loved ones again.

13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Amen. But that is not what John 14 is talking about. Jesus was going to the cross. That is what He meant by telling them where he was going they knew. And He would go to the cross and then to glory to make atonement with the Father SO WE COULD BE PART OF THE HOUSE OF THE FATHER, THE BODY OF CHRIST.

But 1 Thess 4 is speaking about being with JESUS physically in the resurrection.

However Jesus used the PRESENT TENSE in John 14. If he was speaking about 1 Thess 4 as you propose, He would not have used present tense. He would have used future tense. He said THAT WHERE I AM YE MAY BE ALSO. He did not say THAT WHERE I SHALL BE YE SHALL BE ALSO.

What a clear cut scripture portion! THREE TIMES in three verses Paul says the dead ARE ASLEEP!

In reference to their BODIES. Yes. He is referring to the BODY SLEEPING in death. Not the soul nor spirit. For that reason He said he is absent from the body and present with the Lord. Soul sleep adherents do not focus on what he said about absent from the body. They only focus on presence with the Lord. But to be absent from the body is to have LEFT THE BODY. Not to sleep. We are not present with the Lord IN A SLEEP STATE waiting til the trumpet to wake up and then be with the Lord. We LEAVE THE BODY to be with the Lord. Soul sleep teaches we do not leave the body but SLEEP IN IT. That is totally the opposite of what Jesus said.

Note there is not a single thought that this is just talking about DEAD BODIES!

It simply speaks of THE DEAD. Not the dead BODIES!

So, you say. But the fact that Paul said we LEAVE THE BODY in 2 Cor 5 defeats that reasoning. If not, explain to me how absence from the body is not leaving the body and being with Jesus.

In verse 17 Paul tells us AGAIN....the same thing Jesus told us in John 14:3 that THEN at the coming of Christ WE WILL EVER BE WITH THE LORD!

Amen. In Body.

Then Paul finishes off in verse 18 by exhorting the saints to "comfort one another with THESE WORDS"!

THESE WORDS.

Amen,

[quote]
Not other words like "you will go straight to Heaven to the arms of Jesus!".[p/quote]

Sorry, 2 Cor 5 says we do go straight to Jesus in heaven when we die.

2 Corinthians 5:1-8 KJV (1) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. (2) For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: (3) If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. (4) For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. (5) Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. (6) Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (7) (For we walk by faith, not by sight (8) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

The context is the body and being out of it. And Paul said that very thing happens when we die and are ABSENT FROM THE BODY.

CONTEXT is saying that we groan in this current mortal tabernacle and tent of a body. We want to be reclothed with a NEW immortal body. A HOUSE compared to a TENT. But it is better to be out of the current body that makes us groan and be without a body in heaven, and awaiting the HOUSE from heaven which is the immortal body we get later at resurrection, than stay in a body that makes us groan.

[

No. Those are false made up words with no Apostolic authority.

Wrong. 2 Cor 5:8./

The resurrection of the dead is the HOPE OF THE SAINTS.

It is the true gospel or "good news".

Amen! That's when we get our HOUSES from heaven... and re-enter a body meant for us, but immortal.

So.... ahem.. try again.

[Michael The Disciple]

The context leading up to 2 Cor 5:8 is clearly about THE RESURRECTION.

2 Corinthians 5:1-8 KJV (1) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. (2) For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: (3) If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. (4) For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. (5) Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

Same thing here.

Rom 8:18-23

18For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. 20For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Again in this similar context the relief from the pain of the GROANING CREATION is seen at the RESURRECTION.

Note that he says NOTHING here about immortal souls being with Jesus until this happens.

When does Paul teach the clothing of immortality happens?

AT THE RESURRECTION!

50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 1 Cor 15:50-54

Now the key thing is not only does Paul not mention anything about immortal souls being alive in this context....but also that in the ENTIRE 58 VERSES IN THE CHAPTER he mentions no such thing PERIOD!

But then going back to the CONTEXT of 2 Cor 5:8 we see the TIME FRAME of being with the Lord.6Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7(For we walk by faith, not by sight 8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

So the time frame for being with the Lord is the day of judgment! The time of his coming!

So context is definitely not with the "immortal soul" teaching here.