Apostolic Ministers with Guts to Preach 1-Steppers

[consapente89]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Those are called charismatics, not APOSTOLICS.

amen

[CC1]

Christ Church Nashville pastored by L.H. Hardwick for over 50 years until he retired a few years ago was UPC until 1989 and was a one stepper the entire time. With all of the fuss way back in the late 70's to get rid of Kenneth Phillips and Mark Hanby over the tv issue I was shocked when I found out CC Nashville had remained UPC for more than a decade longer. However back then the TN district of the UPC was quite a bit different than it is now.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Hey, Jason, will you demonstrate from scripture the following:

1. Baptism does not save us.
2. Baptism is not for the remission of sins.
3. One does not wash away your sins in baptism.
4. He that believes and is not baptized shall be saved.
5. People receive the Holy Spirit WITHOUT speaking with tongues.
6. The gift of the Holy Spirit is NOT the baptism with the Holy Spirit.
7. Receiving the Holy Spirit is something OTHER than the baptism with the Spirit.
8. Baptism with the Spirit WITHOUT tongues, where there clearly was NO speaking in tongues.
9. Anyone said to be a Christian or saved without either water baptism or the Spirit?
10. Anyone told to "pray" to be "saved".
11. Anyone told to "pray" as an instruction for sinners becoming Christians.
12. A way to get "into Christ" that excludes baptism.

Thanks!

Hey, Esaias, will you please answer the following questions:

1. Does the Bible teach justification is a one time act or a process?
2. On what basis is a repentant sinner justified?
3. What actions or conditions are required of a sinner before they can be justified?
4. What is the result of justification?
5. In exactly what sense does a justified person have peace with God, as per Romans 5:1?
6. Is it possible to be justified and lost? 6a. Is it possible to be at peace with God and lost?
7. Must a person be baptized before they can be justified?
8. Would you disagree that all whom God justifies, He also regenerates and adopts?
8a. If no, would you then affirm one can be justified but neither regenerate nor adopted into the family if God?
8b. If yes to 8, if God regenerates and adopts all who He justifies, would you see this as a process, or as a simultaneous event?
9. Is baptism specifically invoking the name of Jesus required by God as a condition in order to be justified?
10. Is receiving the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues required by God in order to be justified, or as a sign of previous justification?

And a few questions in regard to your held views:
11. Why did Jesus state so many times that to believe in Him was to enter into or possess eternal life?
11a. Does not your position have to nuance and redefine belief to mean-be baptized in Jesus name, speak in tongues, and keep standards? Does not even David Bernard add a small paragraph in his commentary on Romans after discussing justification by faith, redefining it as the 3 step method? Must oneness pentecostals necessarily redefine basic terms and have their own religious lingo, in like manner as JWs, Mormons, and SDAs?
12. In a brief paragraph can you explain how the 3 step view is in harmony and not contradictory to passages such as Romans 3:21-5:1 and the entire book of Galatians?
13. If in your view baptism washes away sins, thus is actually effectual and 100% necessary to salvation, and yet the Baptism of the Spirit is necessary to salvation, evidenced ONLY/primarily with the speaking of tongues, on what basis will the repentant and baptized believer be lost who does not speak in tongues? If all their sins are washed away, thus paid for by the blood of Christ, what would they go to hell for?
14. If baptism is necessary to be cleansed from sin, why do people sometimes receive the Spirit BEFORE baptism? (As in Acts 10:45-48) Doesn't this fact alone mean that baptism cannot be the point in time in which sins are forgiven?

Waiting.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Jason B

Hey, Esaias, will you please answer the following questions

Hey Jay, did you answer his questions?

If yes, where did you?

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Hey Jay, did you answer his questions?

If yes, where did you?

Here. Not sure what post # b/c I'm using the forum runner app, which looks like the internet circa 1996.

Originally Posted by Jason B

The first 4 demonstrate a misunderstanding of justification by faith and the command that the repentant sinner has to submit to water baptism as obedience to the Lord, identification with Him, and the symbolism baptism represents as a burying of the old man and a rising to new life.

5 is simply an untenable position, not supported by scripture, save of course proof texting, in the same manner JWs, Mormons, and SDAs all use small sound byte portions of scripture to arrive at their special "truths" to the neglect of the whole of scripture. Such is the OP conclusion of Acts 10:45 & 19:6, to the neglect of a mountain of scripture, and the very words of Christ himself, declaring belief in Him as the criteria for salvation above all else.

I hold no such positions as you imply in 6&7, I would agree all such language is interchangeable/equivalent.

8, the problems with this interpretation only start in Acts 2, when in 2:41 the 3,000 that responded to Peter's message simply believed and were baptized and added to the church. Then 5,000 in Acts 4:4 with no mention or implication of tongues, then essentially all Gentiles converted through the missionary efforts of the ministry of Paul, Barnabas, Silas, Mark, & Luke. Beyond that theres no witness in early church history that anyone ever believed that, and it has huge problems in that it damns everyone who has never spoken in tongues to hell, as I've discussed here before. This is really the house of cards that the 3 step doctrine collapses on.

9. Nada. As FF Bruce said in his commentary on Acts, the NT knows nothing of an unbaptized believer. I agree, and again any assumption that I believe that someone can refuse baptism and be saved is mistaken. I'd argue the person who refuses baptism probably has never genuinely repented, and thus neither justified.

9,10,11 is simply a confusion and failure to distinguish between the doctrine of justification by faith and easy believism. People who affirm justification by faith don't believe easy believism, consider:
https://youtu.be/dc5lY9YP_bE

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninf...D=517121529420

Faith Works: The Gospel According to the Apostles https://g.co/kgs/SLwlW2

12, see first paragraph.

[Jito463]

Jason, did you have a chance to look through my post?

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...7&postcount=20

[brotherjason]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I think it takes more guts to preach all acts 2:38 in a world like this, when it's much easier to preach one step.

Amen, our churches would be over flowing if we preached the easy believe-ism doctrine. Not many are willing to walk the old paths.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by brotherjason

Amen, our churches would be over flowing if we preached the easy believe-ism doctrine. Not many are willing to walk the old paths.

No they wouldn't, that's just something to make us feel better about small churches.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by crakjak

No they wouldn't, that's just something to make us feel better about small churches.

I have come to believe that doctrinal content has very little to do with mass appeal, except for the fact that according to the bible 'most people don't want the truth' (paraphrased, of course).

There are big Mormon churches, big Catholic churches, big Baptist churches, big Charismatic churches, and big Pentecostal churches (even some big Oneness Pentecostal churches). These days, it seems the deciding factor for large numbers is the answer to the questions "How good is the music?", "How nice is the building?", "How interesting is the preacher?", and "What does the church offer in the way of services or products for my kids?"

[houston]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I have come to believe that doctrinal content has very little to do with mass appeal, except for the fact that according to the bible 'most people don't want the truth' (paraphrased, of course).

There are big Mormon churches, big Catholic churches, big Baptist churches, big Charismatic churches, and big Pentecostal churches (even some big Oneness Pentecostal churches). These days, it seems the deciding factor for large numbers is the answer to the questions "How good is the music?", "How nice is the building?", "How interesting is the preacher?", and "What does the church offer in the way of services or products for my kids?"

This!