UPCI Mega Churches???

[GodIsGreat]

Originally Posted by Barb

No response? Hmmmm...guess the answer to this is in the omission.

Accusations are monumental UNTIL the push for proof, then it's just a matter of put up or clam up.

Slow down cowgirl. Did not Thanksgiving just pass? Furthermore, I don't wake up everyday with coming to this forum as a part of my MO.

[GodIsGreat]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

GodIsGreat, this is exactly what I was talking about. The advent of internet brought a tsunami of communication unprecedented in our time. It enables all types of individuals to gain access to a watching and listening world. This comes with responsibility. Therefore when someone calls another on the carpet the accuser should be responsible to provide evidence for their accusations. If they can't, or if they won't, then they should be shooed away, as one would dismiss a disrespectful child. This doesn't mean that you are a bad person, just someone who wasn't prepared to put their money was their mouth was. I hope you understand.

EB, have you made an accusation on this forum or off, and failed to provide proof?

BTW, I wouldn't shoo off a disrespectful child. IF the relationship is right between a parent and child, and a child is being disrespectful. A wise parent will dig deeper, knowing that there is a deeper issue, and the disrespect is merely a sign of it.

Shooing a child away is disrespecting the child. Two wrongs don't make a right.

FYI, even if you or anyone else thought that I'm a bad person, it wouldn't matter 1 cent to me. I know who I am, what I have produced, and what I will produce in the future.

Lastly, the homosexual "accusation" can be validated by yous truly - you.

Do a little homework, if you're inching to know.

[Jito463]

Originally Posted by GodIsGreat

He was a homosexual then.

This is not uncommon in Apostolic churches.

I don't know what "Apostolic" churches you're hanging around, but yes, yes it is uncommon. Nigh on rare, bordering on the nonexistent, in fact.

If you're telling us the truth, be careful not to fall into hyperbole while attempting to convince us, because it will destroy any chance you have of doing so.

[Jito463]

Originally Posted by GodIsGreat

Lastly, the homosexual "accusation" can be validated by yous truly - you.

Do a little homework, if you're inching to know.

That's now how it works. If I make the claim that you like to dress up like a clown and scare people, then say that anyone can confirm it for themselves, do you really expect anyone to take my word seriously? If you make a claim, you're expected to back it up on your own, not expect the rest of us to go rushing out and do the legwork for you.

[bishoph]

Originally Posted by Jito463

I don't know what "Apostolic" churches you're hanging around, but yes, yes it is uncommon. Nigh on rare, bordering on the nonexistent, in fact.

If you're telling us the truth, be careful not to fall into hyperbole while attempting to convince us, because it will destroy any chance you have of doing so.

My Good Friend.....you obviously live in a VERY small, sheltered portion of Pentecost. I have travelled extensively across multiple sects (organizations & independents) and I can tell you that unfortunately this IS a problem in the Apostolic Pentecostal world. In some circles it is felt with swiftly and the damage is minimal, in others, if the talent is good enough the sin is often overlooked as if the good being done (good music/program etc) is worth brushing the wrong under the carpet.

Just to clarify, this is NOT limited to Apostolic Pentecostals, the effeminate have been a blight in the worship ministry of nearly every religious group.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by GodIsGreat

EB, have you made an accusation on this forum or off, and failed to provide proof?

If I did, and it was flat out false, I was quickly corrected. I don't go around posting Brother So and So allows Homosexual Pedophiles to teach Sunday School. Or Bishop Foofoofnick allows Lesbians to lead the choir. Without PROVING with evidence that these accusations are facts. You aren't doing that, but now send everyone off to find the evidence themselves? Are you for real? Or should I say how old are you? GodIsGreat? What does it look like? Why on earth does anyone other than YOU have to validate YOUR accusation? GIG, let's just put it on the record that you have no evidence for your statement.

Originally Posted by GodIsGreat

BTW, I wouldn't shoo off a disrespectful child.

Why am I not surprised?

Originally Posted by GodIsGreat

IF the relationship is right between a parent and child, and a child is being disrespectful.

Seriously? You are posting under an alias, there is no relationship. You are a phantom, a nameless, faceless, voice. The responsibility is all on your shoulders, you opened your mouth, you are stringing up the preacher, but you don't want to prove YOUR comment. A right relationship between parent and child? Bro, go back and reread my post. I wasn't attempting to give parental advice. Not by a long shot.

Originally Posted by GodIsGreat

A wise parent will dig deeper, knowing that there is a deeper issue, and the disrespect is merely a sign of it.

You are rolling down a road and leaving everyone behind. My man, dig this, you are posting under an alias, you make an accusation, the accusation is not good. Why? Because while there may be homosexuals found on the platform in Church history, this might not be the case with your story. Who are you? "Hey, Pastor Buffoonish has homosexuals in his leadership, Pastor Crackenbush has Pedophiles in his Nursery school and HE ALLOWS IT!" No one knows you, you are hidden, and in the safety of a computer screen you pour gas, and then light the match. You then log off, sign out, and walk away from your computer to have sweet fellowship with the Lord.

So, are you kidding me? You don't see anything wrong with that?

Originally Posted by GodIsGreat

Shooing a child away is disrespecting the child. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Really? Try this one on for size. Whoever spares the rod hates his child, but he who loves him is diligent to discipline him. Stupidity is tied up in the mind of a child, but the rod of correction drives it far from him. The first wrong is you making a baseless accusation, the second wrong is for us to remain quite.

Originally Posted by GodIsGreat

FYI, even if you or anyone else thought that I'm a bad person, it wouldn't matter 1 cent to me.

Excuse me? You don't get it? You are invisible, you are nameless, you are posting in anonymity. You can post all sorts of crazy things and then sit back to relax.

Originally Posted by GodIsGreat

I know who I am,

That's why it is all on you sonny Jim, because you are the only one who knows who you are.

Originally Posted by GodIsGreat

what I have produced, and what I will produce in the future.

Big deal.

Originally Posted by GodIsGreat

Lastly, the homosexual "accusation" can be validated by yous truly - you.

No, sorry, but the burden of proof is on you. As for me and my house, we will chalk it up to a disgruntled nameless individual using slander under the cloak anonymity.

Originally Posted by GodIsGreat

Do a little homework, if you're inching to know.

Itching to know? Listen, I seriously believe that you don't know what I'm trying to tell you. There is no need for anyone to have to prove if your accusation is true. Why? Because all you have to do is provide the evidence. You want us to make phone calls, and knock doors, ask questions, do the research to only end up with egg on our face? How old are you? Obviously you just don't understand the power you possess. To throw something out there without a bit of evidence. An accusation which could cause issues which you will never lift a finger to remedy.

[Barb]

Originally Posted by GodIsGreat

The Rock Church runs about 700-1000 on a good Sunday night. I believe that higher number is all the other works combined.

What I find funny is some of the saints of TRC, feel that The Rock Church is in direct competition with Pastor Holmes Church.

The truth is that The Rock Church is known for their leadership, while Pastor Holmes church is known for prayer.

The spirit of prayer bleeds through Pastor Holmes when he preaches.

Wilson and Young seem to think that they will win their city by having a church full of people with degrees. Both of them have said this over the pulpit. I was shocked!

I always thought that cities were won through a apostolic church where God IS in the driver seat (not by words but really in the driver seat), not by impressing a sin sick city with how "smart" their saints are by showing off a bunch of degrees.

Originally Posted by GodIsGreat

No. "An ax to grind" is pretty heavy, so no.

What I stated is very true. When you have a preacher who feel free to utterly bash and make fun of other apostolic schools in comparison to AST to someone (me) within minutes of just meeting me.

When you began to hear things come over the pulpit as "the way to go" or as okay, when they were once preached (and still is being preached against) ... homosexuals being tolorated as music directors, and their sin being justified in exchange for their talent ...

I can go on and on. It gets very old. However, we (saints) have been trained to sit down and shut up.

An ax to grind?

No. Pretty sick of the carnality, ungodly personalities, bold hypocrisy, high mindedness etc.. Yes.

Originally Posted by GodIsGreat

Barb, will you please tell me how to provide "proof" of church history a decade plus old?

TRC doesn't hand out membership cards. Do you have any bright ideas on how I can provide you proof that I attend TRC?

Lastly. I won't provide the name of the music director who ran the church music at TRC for a few years. According to a reliable source, their were more before him.

Simply go back into TRC's history. Find out who the music director was ... check on him now.

He was a homosexual then.

This is not uncommon in Apostolic churches.

Sir, I was not asking for proof of your church membership. I was asking for proof to the post cited here.

In case you are wondering why I am laying your feet to the fire, let me share MY history with you...

Bro. Wilson was my pastor here in Michigan. Even as a young man, NJW was a man of strong character and integrity. I loved and respected his leadership, and do so today.

Do I think he walks on water? No! There are a few incidentals where he and I disagree, but I NEVER, not for one second, then or now doubted his deep sincerity and love for the lost.

Re degrees...Bishop Wilson has always encouraged education, but NEVER at the expense of truth and evangelism. If that is what you have gleaned from your time in his presence, you have missed much.

As for the unnamed musical director...no need to do so. I know his name. HOWEVER, if you think that was known AND tolerated, you are GREATLY mistaken!!! NJW would NEVER knowingly allow that to happen...NEVER!!

No disrespect here, but I don't give a rolling donut how long you were or have been a member of the TRC...coming here with your definite ax to grind with Bishop Wilson and Bro. Young is mighty low.

All of this leads me to ask: Why? What brings you here to accuse men of God of such things?

Did they not shake your hand one Sunday evening? Did Bishop or Bro. Young stop you in your tracks over a misdeed? Did they not move swift enough in the case of the aforementioned situation from back in the day? Did they deliver a Word from the Lord, and you took it personally as an attack?

What is up?

Here's the deal... this "cowgirl" has a suggestion...give them a call. Be as open and upfront with the elders, in the same manner you have here. Give them a list of your grips. Tell them they are arrogant snobs, because that is what you really think, right? Tell them you think they tolerated homosexuality for the sake of music...oh I would LOVE to hear their answer to that!!

Please, do it up right. Let these two fine men of God confront their accuser, and get back with us...when you can.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Good job

[n david]

Originally Posted by bishoph

My Good Friend.....you obviously live in a VERY small, sheltered portion of Pentecost. I have travelled extensively across multiple sects (organizations & independents) and I can tell you that unfortunately this IS a problem in the Apostolic Pentecostal world. In some circles it is felt with swiftly and the damage is minimal, in others, if the talent is good enough the sin is often overlooked as if the good being done (good music/program etc) is worth brushing the wrong under the carpet.

Just to clarify, this is NOT limited to Apostolic Pentecostals, the effeminate have been a blight in the worship ministry of nearly every religious group.

Unfortunately, this is true. I have spent a little more than a couple decades in music ministry and used to travel a lot as a younger man. Indie, UPC, Non-Denom, PAW, Black, White, Hispanic -- it's an issue in a lot of various types of churches. And I'm afraid, what with the current social climate of gender fluidity, it may only grow worse.

[Jito463]

Originally Posted by bishoph

My Good Friend.....you obviously live in a VERY small, sheltered portion of Pentecost. I have travelled extensively across multiple sects (organizations & independents) and I can tell you that unfortunately this IS a problem in the Apostolic Pentecostal world. In some circles it is felt with swiftly and the damage is minimal, in others, if the talent is good enough the sin is often overlooked as if the good being done (good music/program etc) is worth brushing the wrong under the carpet.

Just to clarify, this is NOT limited to Apostolic Pentecostals, the effeminate have been a blight in the worship ministry of nearly every religious group.

I've sat under 7 different pastors, in three different churches, across two different states. I know several other pastors across multiple other states (and not just UPC). But yes, I obviously live a sheltered existence, and couldn't possibly know anything.