Who's authorized to baptize whom? - Page 12

Esaias · #**111** 10-12-2016, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

The definition must fit the context of the passage.

Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Mat 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Was Christ just speaking of the church which would first be established in Jerusalem? So is I am in the Jerusalem church I am not part of the church in Corinth? There for I better not take the letters to Corinth as letters written to me as they are a separate body and hence forth not to me.

Here you have committed the fallacy of non sequitur.

The church is an actual gathering of called out regenerate people. The letters to one church apply to every other church insofar as the conditions are the same. Thus, Paul says: But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches.
(1 Corinthians 7:17 KJV)

Quote:

Common guys we know that does not work. While the body is composed of individual bodies, we are all part of the greater Body of Christ.

Once again you are making statement that are not found in the Bible and which do not comport with the statements that are in the Bible. Here is the text you misquoted:

For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many. If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling? But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him. And if they were all one member, where were the body? But now are they many members, yet but one body. And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary: And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness. For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked: That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it. Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
(1 Corinthians 12:12-27 KJV)

The Body of Christ is not composed of individual bodies, but of individual members. Unless by 'bodies' you meant individual human bodies, of course. But if by 'bodies' you meant ASSEMBLIES, then you are mistaken. The Body of Christ is a local assembly of individual members. The mystical, spiritual Body of Christ does not and cannot exist in any form EXCEPT in the local assembly, just has human essence cannot exist in any form EXCEPT in an individual human being. Yet there is only one 'humanity'.

The ekklesia is by definition a local assembly. You can not be gathered together as an assembly with people who do not actually gather together with you in a relationship.

Please supply the verses which demonstrate or prove a 'universal, invisible church composed of all churches everywhere and composed of members who never gather together with each other'.
'

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Christ did not tell Peter whatsoever he binds in Jerusalem. He said the earth.

Which means wherever Peter is on the earth, his bindings would be bound in heaven as well. Is Peter the church?

shazeep · #**112** 10-12-2016, 05:50 PM

Please supply the verses which demonstrate or prove a 'universal, invisible church composed of all churches everywhere and composed of members who never gather together with each other'.

well, how about a universal Church composed of all of the repentant, wherever they may be, who become visible when they gather.

Esaias · #**113** 10-12-2016, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shazeep

Please supply the verses which demonstrate or prove a 'universal, invisible church composed of all churches everywhere and composed of members who never gather together with each other'.

well, how about a universal Church composed of all of the repentant, wherever they may be, who become visible when they gather.

I missed where the citation of that verse was?

Look, I understand what people are thinking, but the Bible is the Bible, it says what it says, and no amount of wishful thinking can change that. The church is local, a local assembly of believers gathered together into communion (fellowship) by a common faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

It was the catholics who came up with 'the universal church' concept. The very word 'catholic' means universal. It was part of their attempt to establish hierarchical control over multiple assemblies. IE the beginnings of Christendom's denominationalism. It is used mostly nowadays by people who minimise the role of the local assembly in their lives, sometimes to the point of zero. 'I fancy myself a Christian, therefore I am a part of everything Christian, even though I never assemble with them, except maybe to visit some sect's meetings every once in a while to satisfy my curiosity, thirst for entertainment, or soothe my nagging conscience.'

shag · #**114** 10-12-2016, 08:01 PM

"And I will build my local assembly?"

shazeep · #**115** 10-12-2016, 09:27 PM

exactly, lol. Did you, at any time, give the person who taught you that any money?

So the RCC is the counterfeit, i got no problem with that. I mean, think globally, act locally, sure, but local gathering is a Congregation imo, not a church. It is called "church" to obscure the Church, which is anyone, anywhere, gathered in Christ, and may even spontaneously manifest among believers who do not know each other, yet recognize a move of the Spirit in service, which also is not what happens in a "church," that vain activity having been adequately described in Scripture. With all due respect.

Now certainly there is a Church at Philadelphia et al; but if the building falls into a sinkhole there will still be a Church there, meaning a Congregation, made up of all of the believers in Christ in Philadelphia, even if they are Muslims or Catholics. Monotheists iow, practicing works unto repentance. You are not the sole arbiter of Scripture, and neither am i, and there is no reason i cannot fully respect your interpretations of It, that i can see.

Esaias · #**116** 10-12-2016, 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shag

"And I will build my local assembly?"

And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
(Matthew 16:18 KJV)

'I will build my universal, invisible, assembly that never assembles, never did assemble, and never will assemble'?

Next occurrence of the word church:

And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
(Matthew 18:17-18 KJV)

Tell it to the universal, invisible whatchamacallit? Or tell it to the assembly? You can't 'tell it to the church' unless the church is an actual assembly. A 'local' assembly, if you will.

Next?

Esaias · #**117** 10-12-2016, 10:08 PM

What kind of ekklesia (assembly) was Jesus going to build? An actual assembly of people? OR a 'universal, invisible, non-assembly' assembly?

The word 'ekklesia' means an assembly of people. It means some folks who have gathered together. The ekklesia Jesus was going to build would be HIS ekklesia, but an ekklesia it would be indeed. An assembly.

Show me an assembly that never assembles, and there is your universal invisible non-assembly 'church'. Meanwhile, if you want to find Jesus' ekklesia, find two or more people gathered together in His name, and there it is.

mfblume · #**118** 10-12-2016, 10:13 PM

Congregation is the Old Testament counterpart for Church. King James demanded his translators NOT USE congregation for Eklessia since he wanted to skew the meaning of the word to be something her ruled over, since folks were familiar with the English term Church as his property in England. So what is the meaning of CONGREGATION? A congregated people! If one does not congregate, then one is not part of the congregation.

A congregation is the habitat of the Christian. One will congregate if one is a Christian as much as a lion will live in a pride if it's a lion.

shag · #**119** 10-13-2016, 06:49 AM

I overlooked, or missed a post(s) where a poster was against congregating together as the body, whether locally or beyond locally, as long as they're meeting....whether 3x a week, or 3x a month. (I have not read every page, just skimmed the last couple pages and jumped in briefly).
Looks to me like, He built His church, which is the body of Christ, and they meet locally at times, and beyond. I.E.: evangelists or others that their vocation has them traveling often. But we still need to meet w each other as part of His body, wherever it works best individually w priorities like to encourage, pray, worship, and strengthen one another etc..

I'm not seeing where the demand or required definition for "called out believers / His body, be limited to a particular localized assembly, but then again, I think it's splitting hairs.

Is someone arguing that we don't ever need to meet/congregate together?

shazeep · #**120** 10-13-2016, 07:19 AM

what he said!

Quote:

Originally Posted by mfblume

Congregation is the Old Testament counterpart for Church. King James demanded his translators NOT USE congregation for Eklessia since he wanted to skew the meaning of the word to be something her ruled over, since folks were familiar with the English term Church as his property in England. So what is the meaning of CONGREGATION? A congregated people! If one does not congregate, then one is not part of the congregation.

A congregation is the habitat of the Christian. One will congregate if one is a Christian as much as a lion will live in a pride if it's a lion.

nice!