Who's authorized to baptize whom?

[Godsdrummer]

And while we are on the subject of authority, where do we get the idea that those God gave to the church hold positions of authority. God gave gifts to the church, Ephesians 4 "for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry" we are all minsters.

God set in the church, apostles, prophets, teachers, etc. 1 Cor. 12. Again these are gifts, read it. Where do we get the idea that these gifts are positions of authority? We are the body of Christ, and the head is Christ not men.

God set the gifts in the body, man ordained elders, Bishops, and deacons, and the elders, bishops, and deacons were for the administrational working of the church. And finally it gets me that only one place is the word pastor used in scripture that seems to be the only gift that is designated in religious society today. And that is a bloated position not described in scripture in the manner found in churches today. Where are the apostles, prophets, teachers, gifting of healing, workers of miracles, etc. And just who was Paul telling to seek the best gifts if not the general church.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

I disagree, while I don't agree with everything Shazeep says, he does have valid points that you guys don't seem to want to recognize. It is MPO that baptism has been twisted to become something that was never intended. You can try to force John 3:5 "born of water" to mean baptism but the rest of the context of the passage refutes this.

Bro., we'll never agree on baptism since you do not see Mark 16:16 says baptism comes before salvation, and Acts 22:16 says baptism must be done in order for sins to be washed away. So, our views on how important baptism is will be drastically different from yours for that basic reason. Nothing against you personally. Just factual differences.

The whole context of John 3 deals with being born of the spirit, not one word on baptism. Only when you force "born of water to mean baptism", which I don't believe is the meaning of "born of water". The final words and qualifications of being born of the spirit, are, "as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness". Those in Moses time did NOTHING but look upon the serpent to be saved.

Followed by, "for God sent not his son to condemn the world, but that whosoever believe in him shall be saved".

I feel the biggest problem with religion is the misdirection of the understanding of what baptism meant in those days.

We believe that as much as you do while we hold drastically different positions on the place of baptism.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

And while we are on the subject of authority, where do we get the idea that those God gave to the church hold positions of authority.

Heb_13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

Heb_13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

Heb_13:24 Salute all them that have the rule over you, and all the saints. They of Italy salute you.

1Ti_5:17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.

RULE: G4291
προΐ́στημι
proistēmi
pro-is'-tay-mee
From G4253 and G2476; to stand before, that is, (in rank) to preside, or (by implication) to practise: - maintain, be over, rule.

RULE OVER: G2233
ἡγέομαι
hēgeomai
hayg-eh'-om-ahee
Middle voice of a (presumed) strengthened form of G71; to lead, that is, command (with official authority); figuratively to deem, that is, consider: - account, (be) chief, count, esteem, governor, judge, have the rule over, suppose, think.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

it is a fair question.

Please give verse by verse explanation of SOMETHING with regard to context. So far nothing yet.

[Esaias]

The very word "ekklesia" implies authority.

The kingdom of God is a kingdom, another term necessarily indicating government ie authority. It's not the Rotary Club of God, but the Kingdom of God, with a host of convened assemblies of elected members who meet to carry out the functions of government.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

The very word "ekklesia" implies authority.

The kingdom of God is a kingdom, another term necessarily indicating government ie authority. It's not the Rotary Club of God, but the Kingdom of God, with a host of convened assemblies of elected members who meet to carry out the functions of government.

Amen, but you see there is a movement called the "me, myself, and I" group who cannot explain Church government. The pendulum swings for them from pastor/teacher/evangelist/apostle/prophet, all the way to their own private Idaho. The word ἐκκλησία becomes meaningless, and therefore they exist in a Robinson Crusoe Bible study world, where everyone is right in their own mind. The Bible verses are bantered back and forth like a ball in a tennis match. They are always learning, but never coming to the knowledge of Truth. In fact, they start to erase truths they once held, and sadly some times even to the point of Atheism.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Please give verse by verse explanation of SOMETHING with regard to context. So far nothing yet.

Good luck with that..

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Good luck with that..

Agreed. After all these months not one time has this been provided. Like you said, it's easy to accuse someone of denying Christ's words, but yet never come good with evidence by way of detailed analysis of the particular words in question. That's all we've been hearing, though!

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Agreed. After all these months not one time has this been provided. Like you said, it's easy to accuse someone of denying Christ's words, but yet never come good with evidence by way of detailed analysis of the particular words in question. That's all we've been hearing, though!

Amen, shazeep is just trying to keep the argument hot, and in his mind he is winning.

[Godsdrummer]

Heb 13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

G3421

μνημονεύω
mnēmoneuō
mnay-mon-yoo'-o
From a derivative of G3420; to exercise memory, that is, recollect; by implication to punish; also to rehearse: - make mention, be mindful, remember.

The statement is to remember, nothing about authority or obedience. Just because someone holds a position of supposed ruler ship, does not make them a ruler.

Heb 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

G3982

πείθω
peithō
pi'-tho
A primary verb; to convince (by argument, true or false); by analogy to pacify or conciliate (by other fair means); reflexively or passively to assent (to evidence or authority), to rely (by inward certainty): - agree, assure, believe, have confidence, be (wax) content, make friend, obey, persuade, trust, yield.

Blind obedience is not the meaning of this word, Just because one of the meanings of the word is "obey" does not make it the right translation of the word in the context.
We are to be persuaded by our own study what is true, not just because someone in the position of pastor (that may or may not be called of God) says so.

"study to show yourselves approved" "Seek out your own salvation with fear and trembling". How does one equate the supposed authority of Pastors in the face of these passages. How does one seek out their own salvation when the preacher/pastor says he is the mouth piece of God.

"The very word "ekklesia" implies authority.

The kingdom of God is a kingdom, another term necessarily indicating government ie authority. It's not the Rotary Club of God, but the Kingdom of God, with a host of convened assemblies of elected members who meet to carry out the functions of government."

Don't see that in the definition!
G1577

ἐκκλησία
ekklēsia
ek-klay-see'-ah
From a compound of G1537 and a derivative of G2564; a calling out, that is, (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both): - assembly, church.

"with a host of convened assemblies of elected members who meet to carry out the functions of government"
Elected members? Where is scripture do we have the rule of elected members carrying functions of government. Where and how does Christ fit into your church as head?

Amen, but you see there is a movement called the "me, myself, and I" group who cannot explain Church government. The pendulum swings for them from pastor/teacher/evangelist/apostle/prophet, all the way to their own private Idaho. The word ἐκκλησία becomes meaningless, and therefore they exist in a Robinson Crusoe Bible study world, where everyone is right in their own mind. The Bible verses are bantered back and forth like a ball in a tennis match. They are always learning, but never coming to the knowledge of Truth. In fact, they start to erase truths they once held, and sadly some times even to the point of Atheism.

You have no idea, it is not the "me, myself, and I group" it is only the group. We are the "ekklēsia" Called out ones. Gathered together because of our belief in Christ and his kingdom. And while you are worried about supposed truths once held, I would say they are traditions not truths.
And if some have gone to the point of atheism, I would say it is because of those that pushed traditions as truth, that when people realized this, their whole existence was based on these traditions, and not Christ, they had noting left to have faith in.

Which is why pastors and preachers have a grave responsibility to teach only truth and not their own pet peeves.