Heretics and Politics by Thomas A. Fudge

[aegsm76]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

The one in Washington state, pastored by the Parkers, in Federal Way. Went from running around 100, to today runs around 2000 with 2 services on Sunday to accommodate the growth.

The Rutzins church in Idaho did much the same. Those were the two primary ones that I know that were of the PCI mind set.

This is an assumsion based on recollection. But I believe Ziemke was or is of the PCI mind set. In the 70's his church had massive growth, he was part of the World of Pentecost by Mark Hanby. Who completely restructured the way they had Sunday church. Did away with Sunday school and went to one service on Sunday. Ziemke's church went from around 50-60 to over a thousand in a year. Of course the standard thinking was he dropped his standards.

I would say that those two have also "dropped" the basic Acts 2:38 message.
I also know churches who left that no longer exist in the NW.

[CC1]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

But I believe Ziemke was or is of the PCI mind set. In the 70's his church had massive growth, he was part of the World of Pentecost by Mark Hanby. .

You are mixing up Kenneth Phillips and Mark Hanby. KP was "World of Pentecost" which was in Austin, Texas. Mark Hanby was in Ft. Worth and pastored "Truth Church". His TV program was "Wide World of Truth".

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by CC1

You are mixing up Kenneth Phillips and Mark Hanby. KP was "World of Pentecost" which was in Austin, Texas. Mark Hanby was in Ft. Worth and pastored "Truth Church". His TV program was "Wide World of Truth".

If I am mixing anything up it was not Mark Hanby over Kenneth Phillips. It might have been the name of the group. I am not talking about the name of Mark Hanby's TV program. I am not going to state this as fact but as I recall there was an organization of ministers within UPCI centered around Mark Hanby, that Geine Zeimke was part of. One of the main things about this group was that they did away with Sunday School, and went to one service on Sunday.

Our Pastor's oldest son and first wife attended Hanby's church for a time and came back excited about this new thing, and tried to get his dad to change. Around the same time Zeimke preached a fellowship meeting on the subject of "finding another way". Several churches in the state switched to one Sunday service because of this. During the 80"s Zeimke's church continued to have major growth, but most of the ministers in the state thought it was because he watered down the message. Right after the completion of their new church building Zeimke left, and the new pastor took the church out of UPCI.

Zeimke is now a senior pastor/minister in Federal Way, the church the Parkers started and pulled out of the UPCI in the early 90's. And yes they are of the PCI persuasion I personally have that from Joe Parkers mouth.

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by aegsm76

I would say that those two have also "dropped" the basic Acts 2:38 message.
I also know churches who left that no longer exist in the NW.

And what exactly is the Acts 2:38 message. That was part of the point of the book by Thomas Fudge. The two differing views on the Acts 2:38 message. Bottom line these were one steppers and three steppers that joined to form one organization, because they both believed the oneness of the Godhead and baptism in Jesus name, and infillment of holy ghost.

Not sure what churches that you are referring to that left that no longer exist. But I can only think of one, and that church was never truly of the PCI mentality, because it had pastors in and out of that church of both ways of thinking.

[Godsdrummer]

Of all the names of the pastors in the Portland area, one I have not heard of was Roam, I think that is how you spell his name. His church was not far from the college in the late 60's early 70's. What happened to him?

And another church was Neighborhood in east Portland, pastored by George Sponsler. Wondering if anyone knows what persuasion he was, I believe his son was a strong three stepper. Or should I say became. But George Sponsler was a pastor much like Norman Rutzin in Pendleton OR around the same time.

[Sabby]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

And what exactly is the Acts 2:38 message. That was part of the point of the book by Thomas Fudge. The two differing views on the Acts 2:38 message. Bottom line these were one steppers and three steppers that joined to form one organization, because they both believed the oneness of the Godhead and baptism in Jesus name, and infillment of holy ghost.

Not sure what churches that you are referring to that left that no longer exist. But I can only think of one, and that church was never truly of the PCI mentality, because it had pastors in and out of that church of both ways of thinking.

Well said. The two groups joined because although they "Fellowshiped Their Differences" (Loren Yadon), they had different interpretations of the "Acts 2:38 message". Loren related to me a few years ago that his uncle Haskell said the merger should never have happened because it was like "oil and water". If they could have continued to fellowship their differences it would be a much stronger, diverse movement, imo.

[Sabby]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

If I am mixing anything up it was not Mark Hanby over Kenneth Phillips. It might have been the name of the group. I am not talking about the name of Mark Hanby's TV program. I am not going to state this as fact but as I recall there was an organization of ministers within UPCI centered around Mark Hanby, that Geine Zeimke was part of. One of the main things about this group was that they did away with Sunday School, and went to one service on Sunday.

Our Pastor's oldest son and first wife attended Hanby's church for a time and came back excited about this new thing, and tried to get his dad to change. Around the same time Zeimke preached a fellowship meeting on the subject of "finding another way". Several churches in the state switched to one Sunday service because of this. During the 80"s Zeimke's church continued to have major growth, but most of the ministers in the state thought it was because he watered down the message. Right after the completion of their new church building Zeimke left, and the new pastor took the church out of UPCI.

Zeimke is now a senior pastor/minister in Federal Way, the church the Parkers started and pulled out of the UPCI in the early 90's. And yes they are of the PCI persuasion I personally have that from Joe Parkers mouth.

Gene Z was on staff at Parker's former church for many years. The World of Pentecost was renamed Overcomer's Covenant Church. The pastor is Gordon Banks. They are in "covenant" with other churches with a UPC heritage with their "covenant" covering based at Mike Hayes' church in Dallas.
And speaking of Joe, I believe Hayes is his brother-in-law.
Joe left Idaho three years ago and moved to Dallas.

[Sabby]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

Of all the names of the pastors in the Portland area, one I have not heard of was Roam, I think that is how you spell his name. His church was not far from the college in the late 60's early 70's. What happened to him?

And another church was Neighborhood in east Portland, pastored by George Sponsler. Wondering if anyone knows what persuasion he was, I believe his son was a strong three stepper. Or should I say became. But George Sponsler was a pastor much like Norman Rutzin in Pendleton OR around the same time.

Jim Roam was the pastor of the Evangel Church on Killingsworth that Phil Dugas took over when Roam went to Milwaukie (Oregon) to start a church. Roam left Milwaukie to go to St Louis sometime in the mid to late 70's.. When he left, Lew Davies came to Milwaukie. When Lew had finally had enough, he resigned and Leon Brokaw took his place.

[aegsm76]

Church ran 500-600 under Roam.
I'll keep my comments about what happened to myself.
Some people are still alive and it's not worth bringing up bad memories.
Suffice it to say that it was not successful in it's efforts to leave the UPC and build a super church.

[CC1]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

If I am mixing anything up it was not Mark Hanby over Kenneth Phillips. It might have been the name of the group. I am not talking about the name of Mark Hanby's TV program. I am not going to state this as fact but as I recall there was an organization of ministers within UPCI centered around Mark Hanby, that Geine Zeimke was part of. One of the main things about this group was that they did away with Sunday School, and went to one service on Sunday.

Our Pastor's oldest son and first wife attended Hanby's church for a time and came back excited about this new thing, and tried to get his dad to change. Around the same time Zeimke preached a fellowship meeting on the subject of "finding another way". Several churches in the state switched to one Sunday service because of this. During the 80"s Zeimke's church continued to have major growth, but most of the ministers in the state thought it was because he watered down the message. Right after the completion of their new church building Zeimke left, and the new pastor took the church out of UPCI.

Zeimke is now a senior pastor/minister in Federal Way, the church the Parkers started and pulled out of the UPCI in the early 90's. And yes they are of the PCI persuasion I personally have that from Joe Parkers mouth.

This is the part of your post you are either mixed up on or did not post what you meant to: " But I believe Ziemke was or is of the PCI mind set. In the 70's his church had massive growth, he was part of the World of Pentecost by Mark Hanby."

The World of Pentecost was Kenneth Phillips church name and name of his television program. There was no "World of Pentecost by Mark Hanby".