Heretics and Politics by Thomas A. Fudge

[returnman]

Originally Posted by Sabby

When Randy Langley in Hillsboro refused to baptize a teen (a 17 year old high school junior) because she trimmed her bangs, I had enough. About the same time, he asked to see me after church one Sunday. He continued the bald-faced lie that had been started by Carl Brown and Barry King (and the reason why I left the Beaverton church). Langley accused me of trying to split his church. I could not believe my ears. My character was being impugned and I had no where to go. There was such a hard, carnal spirit coming from him I realized I'd reached the end of the road as far as the UPC was concerned.
He had been using me to teach the adult Sunday School and I was his outreach director. I returned all my contacts for the Search For Truth bible studies to him.
I couldn't get out of there fast enough.
His words verbatim to me as my family climbed into our car to leave were, "It's mighty cold out there, Brother......".. I'd like to say that he said it in love, but...not really. He was right about it being "cold". In the late '80's there was no support system for expatriated PCI'ers, and it was cold for a long time.
I had done nothing wrong, nothing immoral, nothing unfaithful, or disloyal to either him or the leadership of my previous church. I really couldn't understand what was going on. I took it personally because I thought it was personal.
It took a long time for me to realize that it was over my pedigree as a PCI'er AND that my pastors were Alvin Cobb and Wayne Nigh. Nigh was the one that endorsed my application to CBC!
I didn't know of the world of political issues going on with not only CBC but with the vehemence the Ultra-cons viewed Nigh's end-time position (one that I naturally took)!
Fudge did a good job on the book, but imo he left out 1/3 of the reason why the PTLD area pastors took such a strong position against the school. It was about the same time that Nigh was refused by the FMD to return to Germany as a PIM missionary over his end-time views. He stubbornly returned anyway, and the FMD granted him AIM status, fearful to lose the influential work he had begun in Wiesbaden.

Heard about some of this from afar back that day as well but like you not the PCI vs the movement until much later. I am sure without a doubt you where just being an open book and thinking your christian brothers and sisters where as well. One of your classmates at CBC raised an eyebrow at some of your outspokenness. lol. I am sure you can figure that one out.

[Sabby]

[QUOTE=returnman;1423806]Heard about some of this from afar back that day as well but like you not the PCI vs the movement until much later. I am sure without a doubt you where just being an open book and thinking your christian brothers and sisters where as well. One of your classmates at CBC raised an eyebrow at some of your outspokenness. lol. I am sure you can figure that one out.[/QUOTE/]

We had some lively conversations in dorms. In fact, the brother to whom you refer was formerly a friend until he began dating a girl from a very conservative church near the Seattle area.Our CBC chapel services were memorable...
Seeing some of the absolute chaos resulting from discussing the subject of eschatology at CBC (remember, this was when Paul Dugas produced The Apostolic Contender), I decided prior to my junior year to "slack off" trying to convince others. The subject was not a salvational issue to me. I went to the president of the bible college, John Klemin, and personally apologized for being so obnoxious about it. My views never changed, I was trying to fellowship in unity.
Klemin left after that year and Ralph Reynolds came out of retirement to caretake the school while the board looked for someone to lead it into the future. I graduated prior to Don Fisher's arrival, but the environment was already "toxic", to quote a fellow alum.
The school had already been labeled as "weak on the message" and had the swirling issue of questionable eschatology mixed with it. It's a Monday morning quarterback position, but I'm of the opinion that the Portland area pastors were determined to control the school, and close it if they couldn't, regardless of who succeeded Reynolds: Fisher walked into the perfect storm.

I have been asked if I would like to start an "apostolic" church. I might be too long in the tooth for it. I'd have to ask those that ask, does apostolic mean the hardline standards along with imperative 3-steps? Does it mean signing an "affirmation statement"? Does it mean we all walk lock-step and like a bunch of cookie cutter Christians (Gloria Eastridge)? I don't think so. I don't even think those that call themselves apostolic are even sure what it means.

[aegsm76]

Originally Posted by aegsm76

"While I don't count numbers, those that left UPCI began to grow exponentially and run in the thousands."

What churches are these?

Still wondering who the churches are that grew exponentially when they left the UPCI?

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by aegsm76

Still wondering who the churches are that grew exponentially when they left the UPCI?

Kenneth Phillips in Austin, TX.

[aegsm76]

Originally Posted by crakjak

Kenneth Phillips in Austin, TX.

Thanks, but the context of the thread was discussing churches in the NW.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by aegsm76

Thanks, but the context of the thread was discussing churches in the NW.

I knew that! Just poking!
I did read Fudge's latest book though.

[CC1]

I really want to read this book but $30 is too steep for me! I wish they had a $10 kindle version. I will have to keep checking Thriftbooks and Ebay to see if a used one shows up t there.

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by aegsm76

"While I don't count numbers, those that left UPCI began to grow exponentially and run in the thousands."

What churches are these?

The one in Washington state, pastored by the Parkers, in Federal Way. Went from running around 100, to today runs around 2000 with 2 services on Sunday to accommodate the growth.

The Rutzins church in Idaho did much the same. Those were the two primary ones that I know that were of the PCI mind set.

This is an assumsion based on recollection. But I believe Ziemke was or is of the PCI mind set. In the 70's his church had massive growth, he was part of the World of Pentecost by Mark Hanby. Who completely restructured the way they had Sunday church. Did away with Sunday school and went to one service on Sunday. Ziemke's church went from around 50-60 to over a thousand in a year. Of course the standard thinking was he dropped his standards.

[Carl]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

The one in Washington state, pastored by the Parkers, in Federal Way. Went from running around 100, to today runs around 2000 with 2 services on Sunday to accommodate the growth.

The Rutzins church in Idaho did much the same. Those were the two primary ones that I know that were of the PCI mind set.

This is an assumsion based on recollection. But I believe Ziemke was or is of the PCI mind set. In the 70's his church had massive growth, he was part of the World of Pentecost by Mark Hanby. Who completely restructured the way they had Sunday church. Did away with Sunday school and went to one service on Sunday. Ziemke's church went from around 50-60 to over a thousand in a year. Of course the standard thinking was he dropped his standards.

Ziemke was from my state, Wisconsin, his relatives and those who know him here would say the same. Brother, did you know Johnny Hardt?, where is he now?

[CC1]

Originally Posted by crakjak

Kenneth Phillips in Austin, TX.

That church actually had it's most phenomenal growth in the last few years it was UPC. They had a "hippie" revival with a lot of UT students getting saved in the early to mid 70's. That great revival and KP's tremendous burden to reach the world with the Oneness message / Jesus name baptism spawned the TV ministry that led to his departure.

I would say the growth at KP's church since he left the UPC has mostly been in daughter works. There is one in San Marcos that runs over 500 I believe as well as two or three others. Also his son Randy's church that was birthed out of KP's is quite large. I am not sure how many they run but I believe several thousand.

KP left the UPC in 1978 and I think his old sanctuary was packed then as it was in 1983 and in the late 90's when the new building was built. I think the old sanctuary held about 1200-1500 if you included those in Sunday School in the back. The new one seats 2200 (without a balcony - KP hates balcony's) plus room for several hundred in Sunday School.