The Johannine Comma: Inspiration? Or Interpolation?

[Steven Avery]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

No early MSS have it?

How many early mss are you talking about? And how early?

There are Old Latin mss that are considered 5th to 7th century that have the verse. And the Vulgate Prologue by Jerome to the famous Codex Fuldensis directly references the propensity of translators (contextually, scribes) to omit the heavenly witnesses.

Also there are numerous evidences from Cyprian (3rd century) and both earlier and later. Why don't those count as far more evidence than a small number of oddball "early" mss?

Steven

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Steven Avery

How many early mss are you talking about? And how early?

There are Old Latin mss that are considered 5th to 7th century that have the verse. And the Vulgate Prologue by Jerome to the famous Codex Fuldensis directly references the propensity of translators (contextually, scribes) to omit the heavenly witnesses.

Also there are numerous evidences from Cyprian (3rd century) and both earlier and later. Why don't those count as far more evidence than a small number of oddball "early" mss?

Steven

What do you mean oddball "early" MSS.

Do you know about the book of Revelation being originally written all in Paleo Hebrew? (Not that I believe there ever was a Hebrew copy) but have you heard of one?

[Scott Pitta]

Metzger quote of the day. Textual Commentary, page 715

"The passage is absent from every know Greek manuscript except four, and these contain the passage in what appears to be a translation from a late recension of the Latin Vulgate."

ms. 61
ms. 88
ms. 629
ms. 635

You are welcome.

[Steven Avery]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

What do you mean oddball "early" MSS.

The 4th and 5th and 6th century Greek mss are woefully corrupt, and differ from each other in thousands of spots.

[Steven Avery]

Originally Posted by Scott Pitta

Metzger quote of the day. Textual Commentary, page 715 "The passage is absent from every know Greek manuscript except four, and these contain the passage in what appears to be a translation from a late recension of the Latin Vulgate."
ms. 61 ms. 88 ms. 629 ms. 635 You are welcome.

While not exactly accurate, the evidence for the antiquity of the heavenly witnesses is not based on extant Greek manuscripts, so we won't go into the ms details . The fact that the verse dropped out of the Greek mss is not complicated, and the omitting of the verse was commented upon in the early centuries. Even Augustine bypassed the verse, as noted in a later Latin ms. The Vulgate Prologue makes the dropping very clear.

However, the heavenly witnesses verse left its trace in the solecism of the Greek text without the verse.

Steven Avery

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

What do you mean oddball "early" MSS.

Do you know about the book of Revelation being originally written all in Paleo Hebrew? (Not that I believe there ever was a Hebrew copy) but have you heard of one?

Now look, this forum does NOT have any emoticons that accurately represent the explosive force of the guffaw that erupted from my throat when I read this bolded portion above. I didn't even have a drink on hand but I think I still managed to spit something out onto my screen, possibly cerebral fluid.

Please, be careful, some of us might have trouble, a man can almost die laughing around here.

[Scott Pitta]

If only 4 Greek manuscripts have the comma, then it should not be worthy of being in the "majority" text.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Scott Pitta

If only 4 Greek manuscripts have the comma, then it should not be worthy of being in the "majority" text.

The "majority text" is a modern construction (like all "texts"). Authenticity is not necessarily determined by " majority vote".

[Scott Pitta]

I agree. I am not convinced that the text types are as clear cut as some would make them.

That is why I usually quote or refer to specific Greek manuscripts.

[randyabrown]

Eliseus/Esaias, could you provide references (books and page numbers) for your posts starting at post 19? Thanks.