I don't mind the boisterous praise and the shout. I am also a participant. What I want us to be careful of is leaning too much on the element of making noise and not getting as excited when the scriptures are read. That is what brings me to my feet more than anything.
I could agree we shouldn't focus solely on the noise of the shout. A Christian living just for the shout is as vulnerable as one who believes the prosperity doctrine. What happens when the shout is gone, or the trials come? What's the source of the shout?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pressing-On
I have seen young people shout, but not be made strong by it. Something appeared to be surface noise with no depth. That is all I fear the most - noise with no depth of commitment to God.
Certainly there were those in the arena who match what you wrote. I've been in meetings like this in years gone by and was both once a bystander without depth of committment and, at other times, an ardent worshipper.
I am having a hard time wrapping my brain around focusing on decibel levels. I can't quite see the Apostles preaching or focusing on that issue.
I don't mind the boisterous praise and the shout. I am also a participant. What I want us to be careful of is leaning too much on the element of making noise and not getting as excited when the scriptures are read. That is what brings me to my feet more than anything. I have seen young people shout, but not be made strong by it. Something appeared to be surface noise with no depth. That is all I fear the most - noise with no depth of commitment to God.
Pulled over to respond to your post. Better get back on the highway before a police officer thinks I am in trouble or waiting to pick up a stash of illegals. Lol
2 Chron 13:15
Then the men of Judah raised a war cry, and when the men of Judah raised the war cry, then it was that God routed Jeroboam and all Israel before Abijah and Judah.
There you go.
As ive started balance is always key. shouting will never be the whole answer.
I have taught over the years, one particular thing on one day, to the exclusion of other interconnected things, because that's what I needed to do.
We are taking in isolation one 5 minute period during a weekend conference where there were classes during the day and very long services with preaching every night of the conference.
and we are acting like this is what NAYC was? this 5 minutes? im sorry but really that's not being intellectually honest.
NAYC was not simply a yell practice. Our kids that went came home changed. We had kids go that were boarderline. they came home with a commitment I had not seen in them before.
That wasn't because for 5 minutes one night they got really really loud.
BUT I am glad they had that moment of experiencing a real War Shout. It is worthy. It is a good thing. it aint the only thing they need. It wont sustain them during the seasons when the heavens turn to brass and they feel no prayer reaches heaven. BUT it IS one of the things a child of God needs in their lives.
__________________ If I do something stupid blame the Lortab!
The scientific and Biblical disconnect that is occurring is that while all sound waves are merely vibrations travelling across air molecules, and while some kind of spirit (not called Satan) is called the prince of the power of the air in Ephesians 2:2, the references don't cross over into each other.
Spirits are not physical forces with physical kingdoms or domains made up of physical molecules of air (i.e. nitrogen, oxygen, and other gases) any more than the Spirit of God is literally "breath" or "wind" in the sense of air molecules being sped up or slowed down by temperature variations, even though both ruach in Hebrew and pneuma in Greek can mean breath or wind.
There are parallels to teach spiritual applications, perhaps, in that some of these words are used as metaphors. But the sound waves I make with my voice, no matter the decibel levels, don't affect spirits physically, as though they had literal "ears to hear" (that is, the physical organs of hearing to receive and transmit sound waves to the brain, which acts as the center of sound interpretation) since they aren't physical creatures. It is a supernatural event that transcends air molecules and sound wave vibrations.
Yes, all that we do in prayer, intercession, and worship is done through our physical bodies, but once accomplished, the things we say and/or do transcend the physical reality of the natural world and cross over into the realm of the spirit, i.e. the heavenlies. Once those things transmigrate the barrier between the physical to the spiritual, there is also a transubstantiation of those things.
And we cannot say that shouting extra loud at a massive youth convention is going to do more or less once the waves of high decibel sound transmigrate that barrier.
In fact, it's quite possible that some, many, or even most, were shouting with the voice of don't let the next kid see me not obey the preacher. Meanwhile some twelve year old saint, not caught up in the hype of the moment, with tears quietly and gently falling down her face, is in the presence of the Almighty, being used by Him to do the only real damage to "the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the sons of disobedience..."
Very well written post!!
Again, I just want to say that, "Waves of high decibel sound transmigrating that barrier" is just such a weird place to start or to even focus a sermon. I'm sorry to the readers and participants of this thread, but I wouldn't know where to go in the Bible to get that kind of information. Going outside of the Bible to get it is very weird. I can't wrap my brain around that story.
There is plenty of scripture related to raising ones voice to the lord in praise. In fact there is plenty of scripture that relates shouting to the Lord as a form of warfare. both physical and spiritual. Joshua 6:20
So the people shouted, and priests blew the trumpets; and when the people heard the sound of the trumpet, the people shouted with a great shout and the wall fell down flat, so that the people went up into the city, every man straight ahead, and they took the city. 2 Chron 13:15
Then the men of Judah raised a war cry, and when the men of Judah raised the war cry, then it was that God routed Jeroboam and all Israel before Abijah and Judah.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferd
Is 12:6
Cry aloud and shout for joy, O inhabitant of Zion, For great in your midst is the Holy One of Israel Ps 47:1
O clap your hands, all peoples; Shout to God with the voice of joy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferd
In fact the Psalmist David enjoins ALL THE EARTH to raise its collective voices in praise to God.
He tells the sea to clap its hands, to raise its voice. He intones the people to shout "with the voice of many waters".
He instructs the mountains to speak out and to fall on their faces. David in fact states that if the people will not Praise God, the ROCKS WILL CRY OUT.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferd
2 Chron 13:15
Then the men of Judah raised a war cry, and when the men of Judah raised the war cry, then it was that God routed Jeroboam and all Israel before Abijah and Judah.
There you go.
As ive started balance is always key. shouting will never be the whole answer.
I have taught over the years, one particular thing on one day, to the exclusion of other interconnected things, because that's what I needed to do.
We are taking in isolation one 5 minute period during a weekend conference where there were classes during the day and very long services with preaching every night of the conference.
and we are acting like this is what NAYC was? this 5 minutes? im sorry but really that's not being intellectually honest.
NAYC was not simply a yell practice. Our kids that went came home changed. We had kids go that were boarderline. they came home with a commitment I had not seen in them before.
That wasn't because for 5 minutes one night they got really really loud.
BUT I am glad they had that moment of experiencing a real War Shout. It is worthy. It is a good thing. it aint the only thing they need. It wont sustain them during the seasons when the heavens turn to brass and they feel no prayer reaches heaven. BUT it IS one of the things a child of God needs in their lives.
I agree that balance is the key and that shouting will not be the whole answer. Again, I am a participant, so I am not against any form of worship that is decent and in order. You don't have a problem with me on that at all.
I highlighted your other posts because I am wondering why we find and quote the passages from the OT ONLY. What did the Apostles teach?
I see Peter sitting in Cornelius's home, explaining the Hebrew scriptures and the Holy Ghost falls and fills the people present. That is an awesome experience right there - the "scriptures" brought down the power of God.
We had the same experience in our church. Many came back changed and several children also experienced their parents being renewed and others receiving the Holy Ghost for the first time. So, again, we agree - "this 5 minutes" of decibel language wasn't the full impact.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferd
it aint the only thing they need. It wont sustain them during the seasons when the heavens turn to brass and they feel no prayer reaches heaven. BUT it IS one of the things a child of God needs in their lives.
If we teach this to them upon returning than we have done a great job.
I deleted the rest of what I really wanted to say. Because there are a lot of things to take into account and this forum is not the place to do that properly.
I agree that balance is the key and that shouting will not be the whole answer. Again, I am a participant, so I am not against any form of worship that is decent and in order. You don't have a problem with me on that at all.
I highlighted your other posts because I am wondering why we find and quote the passages from the OT ONLY. What did the Apostles teach?
I see Peter sitting in Cornelius's home, explaining the Hebrew scriptures and the Holy Ghost falls and fills the people present. That is an awesome experience right there - the "scriptures" brought down the power of God.
We had the same experience in our church. Many came back changed and several children also experienced their parents being renewed and others receiving the Holy Ghost for the first time. So, again, we agree - "this 5 minutes" of decibel language wasn't the full impact.
If we teach this to them upon returning than we have done a great job.
I deleted the rest of what I really wanted to say. Because there are a lot of things to take into account and this forum is not the place to do that properly.
I suspect we are not very far apart... maybe stressing different areas... im just challenging some blog that claims to be Apostolic and yet finds a fun way to bash Apostolics. im fairly intolerant of such...
let me just say that there is a whole church... the Church of Christ that doesn't have music because they cannot find music in the New Testament.
I do remember that Paul and Silas were up at midmight singing and worshiping God when God sent an earthquake.
I remember that when they showed up at the home the folk inside were praying and hardly had time for them.
__________________ If I do something stupid blame the Lortab!
I suspect we are not very far apart... maybe stressing different areas... im just challenging some blog that claims to be Apostolic and yet finds a fun way to bash Apostolics. im fairly intolerant of such...
let me just say that there is a whole church... the Church of Christ that doesn't have music because they cannot find music in the New Testament.
I do remember that Paul and Silas were up at midmight singing and worshiping God when God sent an earthquake.
I remember that when they showed up at the home the folk inside were praying and hardly had time for them.
But, their focus wasn't how how loud they could get. It was on their faith in what they believed.
Paul: Silas you ain't loud enough. We aren't going to get out of here unless we make some waves of high decibel sound transmigrating that barrier.
Silas: Oh, okay. Let's get louder.
Did they think like that? No, I would say they didn't. Why even go there is my question?
I am sure that we are not far apart on our view.
I don't, generally, enter praise at the top of my lungs. I begin and allow God to take that where ever He wants it to go. If it ends in a shout - great. I don't ever, again, want to hear someone tell me to prove my relationship with God by my shout.
My main point of view, which will never change, is that I want to talk about my "faith" that moves mountains, and not about how loud I can get in a service. This "decibel" wording just set off something that has always bugged me.
You know how you hear a message and want to borrow elements? The "decibel" language isn't one of those examples.
Anyway, I stand solely on - If your praise doesn't lead you into obedience to Jesus Christ, you are simply making noise.
I could get into other pet peeves - "Father God" and "Comfort Zone".
All of this about the Biblical command to shout as an aspect of worship to God is beside the point. Any sensible person who reads the Scriptures with an open mind should be able to see it's there and is a part of what we are to do as an offering of praise to God.
The issue is the "literally shredding the air molecules" concept. You can't shred molecules of air with the human voice, and even if you could, it wouldn't do jack to hurt the devil. If it could, you could likely punch him in the face with your hand.
There is something called sonolysis which makes use of a process called cavitation, which can cause the destruction of various chemical bonds between larger molecules, none of which include air molecules. However, none of this even matters, as even if sound waves could destroy molecular bonds regarding the air, it still wouldn't affect the devil or his minions.
Sound waves can be used in all sorts of ways to destroy things. Sound weapons are being developed by militaries. But so what? The weapons of our warfare are not carnal, i.e. not the flesh, i.e. of the natural, material realm.
Shouting in worship only has the effect it has because it's one tool in the spiritual arsenal of our warfare. It's not the sound waves created, but the use God makes of our obedience in doing it that causes Him to deliver or render victory.
I can scream louder than most anyone I know, if I was put to a contest. This doesn't give me victory over sin and the devil. The blood of the lamb and the word of my testimony does.
__________________
For anyone devoted to His fear:
All of this about the Biblical command to shout as an aspect of worship to God is beside the point. Any sensible person who reads the Scriptures with an open mind should be able to see it's there and is a part of what we are to do as an offering of praise to God.
The issue is the "literally shredding the air molecules" concept. You can't shred molecules of air with the human voice, and even if you could, it wouldn't do jack to hurt the devil. If it could, you could likely punch him in the face with your hand.
There is something called sonolysis which makes use of a process called cavitation, which can cause the destruction of various chemical bonds between larger molecules, none of which include air molecules. However, none of this even matters, as even if sound waves could destroy molecular bonds regarding the air, it still wouldn't affect the devil or his minions.
Sound waves can be used in all sorts of ways to destroy things. Sound weapons are being developed by militaries. But so what? The weapons of our warfare are not carnal, i.e. not the flesh, i.e. of the natural, material realm.
Shouting in worship only has the effect it has because it's one tool in the spiritual arsenal of our warfare. It's not the sound waves created, but the use God makes of our obedience in doing it that causes Him to deliver or render victory.
I can scream louder than most anyone I know, if I was put to a contest. This doesn't give me victory over sin and the devil. The blood of the lamb and the word of my testimony does.
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