Lee Stoneking Addresses UN

[Walks_in_islam]

Originally Posted by Barb

Walks, "Mohammed is God's apostle." I do NOT believe this nor do I believe that Allah is god. SO that makes me an unbeliever, according to the Qur'an.

"Those who follow him (Mohammed) are harsh to the unbelievers (that would be me) but merciful to one another (Muslims)."

The Qur'an may not specifically call Jews and Christians out as unbelievers, but common sense dictates that this is so.

I certainly can understand your point of view from the standpoint of a christian for the same reason I can understand how a message on tolerance and reconciliation became something else. From the standpoint of the Quran However, this is not the only reference to the "people of the book" (Jews and Christians) as equal to Muslim believers.

[Walks_in_islam]

Originally Posted by Barb

Thumbs up? If God is One, then the recent idea that a magic formula ensures salvation would not align with thousands of years of what God has consistantly overlooked and consistantly defined as righteous. Certainly this formula, which condemns actions that God has always found acceptable, would be in conflict with "today, yesterday, and forever" and "I have not come to change the law" and "not one word of the law will be changed" that is sprinkled through your book

[shazeep]

nice. i see that the trap is in believing that you have the only definition of this "one way," because it is defined in the NT in terms that you believe you have understood, when they are spiritual principles merely being described in a certain way. This allows one, should they seek it, to point at a passage and declare "see, this is the only way; the Bible says so," ignoring that there are other passages that indicate the "one way," some as simple as giving someone in need a drink of water.

and so those verses that you cherish, and believe you have comprehended, become stumbling blocks; as surely as some passages in the Qur'an might be. Combine this with the fact that great lengths are gone to, to instill fear that compromising your beliefs = compromising your faith, when the two are not coequal. God cares little for what you believe; which will notably undergo various changes throughout your life. Love is not what you say, it is what you do.

So while I'm sure you all think I'm being unduly harsh to unbelievers, and I'll admit to some judgement based upon my understanding of Scripture, also, please see that my position is for purposes of discussion. I really do not judge you in this matter, as it is a universal one of ego that i suffer from as well. It is the meaning of "Christ must increase, while i decrease." For that matter, for all your condemnation of Muslims, you might be perfectly loving to one in need; which is all that matters.

[shazeep]

but i would strongly encourage anyone interested in a deeper walk to examine this idea of "they are inadequate" and "I am superior" for what they are, as they of course define you as a nation. These are known as "subject/object" relationships, wherein one is always either dominant or submissive, master or slave. And if you can accept that "_________ are lost," it then becomes possible to perpetrate every other evil in your name; just as we see occurring in our society right now. This is why it is acceptable to consume sneakers made from child slaves, although the connection might be hard to see at first glance.

And don't kid yourself that you will view anyone else differently from Muslims; everyone will be viewed through the same lens.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

The Quran and Islam do not teach many ways to God.

The Quran teaches that there is One God, not shared with any other
The Quran teaches that these things are mandatory:

Verbally declare that there is One God and (for Muslims only) Mohammed is a messenger
Prayer
Fasting
Zakat (charity)

I contend that Jesus taught nothing different and I completely reject the idea that everyone between the rise of the Roman Church and Azusa street "went to hell". I also believe that based on the condition of Christianity at the time of development of the Quran and the condition of the chirch today that the church turned away from what they were supposed to do and how they were supposed to conduct themselves and God picked the most backwards and ignorant group of people possible to clarify it.
All Muslims believe in Jesus. It is not enough to believe in Jesus and there is not a magic salvation formula. Conduct and what is due God is spelled out and it is clearly stated in both books that all men will be judged not by what they believed or how they looked but by their deeds. This is contradictory to following a magic formula which magically conveys the right to judge and condemn others. It is not contradictory to every single person declared righteous by God in every single book.

Are you trying to suggest that God turned away from the Jewish people and Christians to replace them with Mohammad and Islam?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

but i would strongly encourage anyone interested in a deeper walk to examine this idea of "they are inadequate" and "I am superior" for what they are, as they of course define you as a nation. These are known as "subject/object" relationships, wherein one is always either dominant or submissive, master or slave. And if you can accept that "_________ are lost," it then becomes possible to perpetrate every other evil in your name; just as we see occurring in our society right now. This is why it is acceptable to consume sneakers made from child slaves, although the connection might be hard to see at first glance.

And don't kid yourself that you will view anyone else differently from Muslims; everyone will be viewed through the same lens.

It's nothing to do with superiority of people. It has to do with faith in what the bible teaches or not. Change that all you wish, but that is the issue here. If you cannot see that, then there's no discussion. You are judging our hearts which only God can do and we are being objective, not subjective, saying the word says this and they disagree with it. It's not a matter of bad interpretation. Muslims deny the resurrection of Jesus for salvation. They deny Jesus is God came in flesh. Their Dome of the Rock actually states in the walls that God cannot be in flesh as a man. They deny 1 Tim 3:16.

None of that is judging their intentions like you are judging ours.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

The Quran and Islam do not teach many ways to God.

The Quran teaches that there is One God, not shared with any other
The Quran teaches that these things are mandatory:

Verbally declare that there is One God and (for Muslims only) Mohammed is a messenger
Prayer
Fasting
Zakat (charity)

I contend that Jesus taught nothing different and I completely reject the idea that everyone between the rise of the Roman Church and Azusa street "went to hell". I also believe that based on the condition of Christianity at the time of development of the Quran and the condition of the chirch today that the church turned away from what they were supposed to do and how they were supposed to conduct themselves and God picked the most backwards and ignorant group of people possible to clarify it.
All Muslims believe in Jesus. It is not enough to believe in Jesus and there is not a magic salvation formula. Conduct and what is due God is spelled out and it is clearly stated in both books that all men will be judged not by what they believed or how they looked but by their deeds. This is contradictory to following a magic formula which magically conveys the right to judge and condemn others. It is not contradictory to every single person declared righteous by God in every single book.

Do you believe Jesus' words when He said his death on the cross is required to draw all men to Him, and that without His death and burial and resurrection, He would not be multiplied but remain alone? Do you believe His words when he said NO ONE comes to God but BY HIM?

Joh 14:6 KJV Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Act 4:12 KJV Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Joh 12:24 KJV Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. ....[Explaining how His death was vital to see resurrection save souls and make sons of God.]

Joh 6:53-54 KJV Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. (54) Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 12:32-33 KJV And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. (33) This he said, signifying what death he should die.

Php 2:9-11 KJV Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: (10) That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; (11) And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Rom 6:3-4 KJV Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? (4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

And most importantly: this...

Eph 1:20-22 KJV Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, (21) Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: (22) And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

1Ti 3:16 KJV And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Joh 1:1 KJV In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Joh 1:14 KJV And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


Do you agree with all these words?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

Are any of us qualified to determine if a message is prophetic and name someone a Prophet?

The apostles are. And they made the statements we stand upon.

[Walks_in_islam]

Originally Posted by mfblume

The apostles are. And they made the statements we stand upon.

Does someone today have that right, to proclaim a man a prophet?

[Walks_in_islam]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Do you believe Jesus' words when He said his death on the cross is required to draw all men to Him, and that without His death and burial and resurrection, He would not be multiplied but remain alone? Do you believe His words when he said NO ONE comes to God but BY HIM?

Joh 14:6 KJV Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Act 4:12 KJV Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Joh 12:24 KJV Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. ....[Explaining how His death was vital to see resurrection save souls and make sons of God.]

Joh 6:53-54 KJV Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. (54) Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 12:32-33 KJV And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. (33) This he said, signifying what death he should die.

Php 2:9-11 KJV Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: (10) That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; (11) And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Rom 6:3-4 KJV Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? (4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

And most importantly: this...

Eph 1:20-22 KJV Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, (21) Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: (22) And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

1Ti 3:16 KJV And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Joh 1:1 KJV In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Joh 1:14 KJV And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


Do you agree with all these words?

I do not interpret that any of these words exempts us from the actions that Jesus practiced on earth to serve God nor do I interpret any of these words in any way but other than salvation is closed to those who do not serve God exactly as Jesus served God.
No magic formula exempts anyone from judgement according to their deeds and Jesus himself said that prostitites and tax collecters would enter Heaven before the self-righteous (something to maybe keep in mind Blume, suggestion only)