However, and seriously, the passage does not mean to follow leadership blindly.
"Considering" in the Greek means, "to look at attentively, to consider well, to observe accurately."
No one is given carte blanche with the Gospel. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen, but the Bible never gives a person permission to follow whatever path they think is right - in their own eyes.
Location: Phoenix, AZ.: Baptized in the NAME of the Lord Jesus in 1982.
Posts: 2,065
Re: Obey them that have the rule over you
Quote:
Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord
How do you interpret this passage of scripture? Hebrews 13:7-17 ... considering especially verses 7 and 17?
7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.
8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
9 Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein.
10 We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle.
11 For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp.
12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.
13 Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach
14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.
15 By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name.
16 But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased. 17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
"Remember them which have the rule over you (preceded you), have spoken unto you the
word of God...Obey them that have the rule over you (preceded you) , and submit yourselves..."
Who are they that "have the rule" (preceded)? Those who adhere to a "one-man" rule in
the Church will say the "pastor". But they ignore the role of the Ministry and the Church.
So you are thinking this passage has more to do with political government rather than church government?
well, that seems to depend upon who rules over you, yes? Which can actually get quite sticky but the image of a pastor's "ruling" does not agree with my understanding of the relationship, no. It implies an earthly mediator.
Location: Phoenix, AZ.: Baptized in the NAME of the Lord Jesus in 1982.
Posts: 2,065
Re: Obey them that have the rule over you
Quote:
Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord
Well, clarifying who the "them" is is a good place to start, next clarifying what "rule over" means as well.
"THEM" are they who have "...spoken unto you the word of God...". It is safe to assume
that it could be the Ministry or someone in the Church who performed "...the work of
the ministry". Paul declared, "I have begotten you through the gospel."
"RULE OVER" means those who have gone before, who has preceded you: who
have been saved before you and are mature in the faith and know how to perform "...the work of the ministry".
"THEM" are they who have "...spoken unto you the word of God...". It is safe to assume
that it could be the Ministry or someone in the Church who performed "...the work of
the ministry". Paul declared, "I have begotten you through the gospel."
"RULE OVER" means those who have gone before, who has preceded you: who
have been saved before you and are mature in the faith and know how to perform "...the work of the ministry".
Awesome. This is what we understood as well when we studied this passage out.
Obey
πείθω STRONG’S NUMBER: g3982
To persuade, particularly to move or affect by kind words or motives.
Obedience is unto their example, as in verse 7 mentioning "whose faith follow" not unto their person or desires. Their example is produced by the Holy Ghost, and so one's obedience would be to the Holy Ghost-- not to a particular man.
Rule over
ἡγέομαι STRONG’S NUMBER: g2233
To lead or go before, go first, lead the way.
Better said:
Be persuaded by the example of those who go before you
I had never heard it taught this way all the many, many years I was in OP churches though. We were to "obey" - meaning every little whim and wish of the pastor - because this verse was used as a stick to beat us with if we didn't.
Location: Phoenix, AZ.: Baptized in the NAME of the Lord Jesus in 1982.
Posts: 2,065
Re: Obey them that have the rule over you
Quote:
Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord
Awesome. This is what we understood as well when we studied this passage out. Obey
πείθω STRONG’S NUMBER: g3982
To persuade, particularly to move or affect by kind words or motives.
Obedience is unto their example, as in verse 7 mentioning "whose faith follow" not unto their person or desires. Their example is produced by the Holy Ghost, and so one's obedience would be to the Holy Ghost-- not to a particular man.
Rule over
ἡγέομαι STRONG’S NUMBER: g2233
To lead or go before, go first, lead the way.
Better said:
Be persuaded by the example of those who go before you
I had never heard it taught this way all the many, many years I was in OP churches though. We were to "obey" - meaning every little whim and wish of the pastor - because this verse was used as a stick to beat us with if we didn't.
We are to obey the word that comes through the anointing, whether by the Ministry
or the church; for therein lies the power. Now this is worth repeating: Power and
authority is manifest in direct proportion to the Ministry's or individual's OBEDIENCE
to the Word.
but the image of a pastor's "ruling" does not agree with my understanding of the relationship, no. It implies an earthly mediator.
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