born of water

[Sean]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

Name doesn't mean authority. Give a scripture that says that. A name is a person's identity. We don't ever "possess" Christ authority, but are under his authority. There is only one way and that is Jesus Christ. I use His name to be obedient and to identify Him. I am under his authority by using His name in all I do. That means to use a literal invoking of the name.

You have left taking the scriptures at face value to interpreting the scriptures to your personally theology. Name simply means name so you shouldn't change name to authority. The bible says, "authority" where it should and it says, "name" where it should. You will never go wrong by taking the word of God literally and at face value. We should take it for what it says and stop looking for some secret code or deeper meaning in everything.

The Holy Ghost is never going to lead someone to believe that His name is not an essential part of our salvation. If you are under His authority you are going to teach what the Bible says and not twist scriptures to make it flexible for more people's circumstances. Obedience should be in all things including baptism. Water baptism is necessary also. I don't know which is the most important: Spirit baptism or water baptism. The scriptures teach us that we are to have both.

Brother G.S., this is exactly right!!! You have the truth here!!!

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Sean

Im not sure if you believe a person is saved prior to water baptism, but I am sure you think the baptizer should shut up and let the baptizee do the talking.

The baptizer must keep his little "encantations"(saying the name Jesus) to himself...LOL

Sean it seems that when you are stumped that you resort to "humor".

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

Name doesn't mean authority. Give a scripture that says that. A name is a person's identity. We don't ever "possess" Christ authority, but are under his authority. There is only one way and that is Jesus Christ. I use His name to be obedient and to identify Him. I am under his authority by using His name in all I do. That means to use a literal invoking of the name.

You have left taking the scriptures at face value to interpreting the scriptures to your personally theology. Name simply means name so you shouldn't change name to authority. The bible says, "authority" where it should and it says, "name" where it should. You will never go wrong by taking the word of God literally and at face value. We should take it for what it says and stop looking for some secret code or deeper meaning in everything.

The Holy Ghost is never going to lead someone to believe that His name is not an essential part of our salvation. If you are under His authority you are going to teach what the Bible says and not twist scriptures to make it flexible for more people's circumstances. Obedience should be in all things including baptism. Water baptism is necessary also. I don't know which is the most important: Spirit baptism or water baptism. The scriptures teach us that we are to have both.

ok, but i agree with the O at "authority," because yes one should have both, yet there are obviously many accepted with neither; and we know many will cry "Lord, Lord--" the legalists, which wadr this sounds like. i think in between the two povs lies Grace.

i don't look for 'secret codes' or deeper meanings; they are revealed to me. The Bible is a spiritual Book, and many are aware of widely held 'deeper meanings' that might not be proven, yet provide reflections valid enough to be called cliche, even. Conversely, many are aware of passages translated into words that we would not use today for the same concept--"hope" becomes "confident expectation," etc.

So by all means read the Bible literally, and seek your own salvation, but when someone tells you that you have to do something their way--"proof" provided or not--you might see if you can detect any Grace along with it; or see that God has provided it anyway. Lots of Latinos are named Jesus.

[obriencp]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Of course a thing had to be God's will before he works. That's a given. He won't work just because we invoke his name. But he also demands it in baptism.

Thanks for clarifying that He won't just work because we invoke his name.

I'm not going to say someones sins aren't remitted if the baptizer did it according to their misunderstanding. If the one being baptized is placing their faith in Jesus and entering a covenant relationship with him to be Lord of their life, how can you say they're not saved?

Now we have to rely on another man's understanding/obedience for our salvation?

[shazeep]

yup; and prepare to be re-baptized

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by shazeep

ok, but i agree with the O at "authority," because yes one should have both, yet there are obviously many accepted with neither; and we know many will cry "Lord, Lord--" the legalists, which wadr this sounds like. i think in between the two povs lies Grace.

i don't look for 'secret codes' or deeper meanings; they are revealed to me. The Bible is a spiritual Book, and many are aware of widely held 'deeper meanings' that might not be proven, yet provide reflections valid enough to be called cliche, even. Conversely, many are aware of passages translated into words that we would not use today for the same concept--"hope" becomes "confident expectation," etc.

So by all means read the Bible literally, and seek your own salvation, but when someone tells you that you have to do something their way--"proof" provided or not--you might see if you can detect any Grace along with it; or see that God has provided it anyway. Lots of Latinos are named Jesus.

I have seen people who had faith and where used with supernatural gifts who where disobedient in their lifestyle (I know of one who got mad used profanity aloud in church). Just because God has used me I don't take that as everything I am doing is o.k. There will probably be tongue talkers in Hell (I don't joy in that). I have had my emotions moved by songs and even some sad movies but that doesn't mean anything. The Holy ghost will not lead a person to disregard scripture. Beware when you feelings tell you something different from the Bible.

Things like death bed conversions God will judge whether they will be o.k. or not otherwise you are commanded to be baptized in Jesus name. If you go by a deeper revelation rather than a literal understanding of Gods's word then who's revelation do we go by. Many times everyone is going to have a different one. If everyone took a literal interpretation of the Bible there would be little to no such thing as denominations but we would all be in unity.

When you baptize in the name of Jesus you are being obedient. I understand that some Hispanics have that name, but that doesn't change the scripture. I believe God can distinguish who you are referring to. That is where I think we do it with His authority. He knows when we are calling out His name in faith.

[shazeep]

i find little to disagree with there.

Originally Posted by good samaritan

...There will probably be tongue talkers in Hell...

i have a different understanding of 'hell' now, but that's another thread!

Originally Posted by good samaritan

If you go by a deeper revelation rather than a literal understanding of Gods's word then who's revelation do we go by. Many times everyone is going to have a different one. If everyone took a literal interpretation of the Bible there would be little to no such thing as denominations but we would all be in unity.

HMM, IT SEEMS TO ME THAT ANY DEEPER oops understanding of Scripture should not contradict, but complement and expand--and the other side of that coin may be that we seem to have enough divisions with literal interpretations, so i'm not convinced that that is the divisor; i would say that that may depend upon the cases.

If everyone takes a "literal" interpretation of the KJV, they will be participating in pagan fertility rites to Ishtar at Passover...yet many Christians, who consider themselves devout, have no problem with this. And who can deny the similarities of a Christian's walk to the Wandering in the Sinai? Does not Scripture advise us--command us, actually--to go by our own interpretation? i submit that as a human you will do no less, anyway, even if it is a 'borrowed' interpretation.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by obriencp

Thanks for clarifying that He won't just work because we invoke his name.

I'm not going to say someones sins aren't remitted if the baptizer did it according to their misunderstanding. If the one being baptized is placing their faith in Jesus and entering a covenant relationship with him to be Lord of their life, how can you say they're not saved?

Now we have to rely on another man's understanding/obedience for our salvation?

That is the fundamental flaw of many of our brethren. That and not really understanding what God is doing and declaring by baptizing someone with the Spirit.

[shazeep]

people perish for lack of knowledge--how many hours in Scripture does the typical new convert have? i had about 1

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Originalist

Sean it seems that when you are stumped that you resort to "humor".

Nah, I just try to break up the rhetoric and have a little fun. Arguing gets old sometimes(if you know what I mean).