Deep Apostolic Teachers?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Sean

Again bro....If we "agree to disagree", nothing gets done. Should we then begin to "court" the other Christian denominations for the sake of "unity"?

What you are seeing here IS what the Apostles would have done, not "agree to disagree"....

I'm not saying that you have to fellowship them. I'm simply saying if they condemn you to Hell for the teaching of free giving... and you condemn them to Hell for the tithe teaching... you're essentially no different.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Sean

All that said, it is counter productive to take public offerings, money rains on the altar and marches(which are intended to marginalize and intimidate).

We need to put safes in booths(like voting booths) in our lobby's and just ask those that can give to give secretly. They will love it because we are doing what Jesus taught verbatim. Then we can officially "guarantee" successful open blessings because we did it right.

I believe in what I call "grace giving". People give as they have purposed in their hearts. Those wishing to become sustaining partners in ministry can make a "vow" (a pledge to God) to give a certain amount or percentage over a given period of time (typically a year commitment).

This way churches can accurately forecast pertaining to their operational budget.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I'm not saying that you have to fellowship them. I'm simply saying if they condemn you to Hell for the teaching of free giving... and you condemn them to Hell for the tithe teaching... you're essentially no different.

The BIG difference is I am scripturally right(freewill giving), and they are scripturally wrong(forced giving).

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Folks were dancing and shouting tonite as they were bringing their tithes and offerings. Was a sight to behold.

Yeah, I used to do it myself in my ignorance(as a simple minded new convert that did not understand the Bible).

[Sean]

Also, people shouted and danced as they threw money at Creflo Dollar and Leroy Thompson's feet while they danced in it. People are gullible, especially in a group setting that gives way to fanatical emotionalism.
___________QUOTE Jason




My brother, the "money rain" you have described is now starting in our UPC churches...CLC has done it twice recently(without the money dance)


This is where it all is heading...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYxeTjrckl0

[Sean]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

Someone very close to me was refilled with the Holy Ghost after being away from God tonight. Tithing wasn't ever an issue with them. Matter of fact of my short 32 years of life I haven't heard of one person leaving because they felt forced to tithe. I believe the number one reason I have seen people backslide is over man and women relationships and getting disgruntled about something they were offended by. I have never one time heard someone say they backslid because they couldn't tithe. I do know people who are not in church who have paid a tithe into a local church who didn't even profess to be a Christian in their walk. They would do it and later testify that they noticed that they were more blessed when they did it. giving cheerfully does work even if it is tithes. I do recommend that people try doing it in faith and see if it changes anything for them.

Brother, take some backsliders to coffee on a regular basis....then ask them about their "problems" with the church. You will find that they are mostly legitimate problems. You will generally find tithing(men) and standards(women) at the top of the list, for anyone of them that have any biblical knowledge and are not back in deep sin.

Now ask sinners what they think of the churches today. You will see that the #1 thing that they say is ..."the church is a business" or "all they want is your money".

Where do you think they got that idea?


Do you think Paul was realizing that fact and tried to keep money(mammon) out of the picture of the ministry as much as possible?....ie Acts 20 to the elders.


Brother, regarding your age(31), you are my "target" audience. The "next" generation that must make the changes that I have been advocating!

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Sean

The BIG difference is I am scripturally right(freewill giving), and they are scripturally wrong(forced giving).

Forced giving is wrong. However, to hurl condemnations at them, is just as bad as them hurling condemnations at you.

Instead, I pray that the Lord open their eyes. I pray that they begin to see the depth to which this form of extortion keeps them bound and often burdens the poor, widow, and orphaned families in their congregations. I pray that they see that the tithe was not considered a burden in the OT because only those professions connected to the life on the land had to tithe (farmers and herdsmen). Under God's law... widows were exempt. The tithe was a 10% agrarian flat tax that sustained the temple, the Levites, and the storehouse for these needy classes. For those in need... the tithe was a blessing, because they received of it. The way the tithe doctrine is managed today, the tithe is a burden on the very classes God's law would have relieved.

I do not pray for their damnation. I pray for them to receive a revelation on "grace giving".

I believe that education is the best approach. Instead of condemning them... educate them. Beat the drum over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over until they either acquiesce to the truth... or their followers begin to see them as the misinformed and desperate leaders they are. Tithing has a true researchable history. It wasn't universally embraced from NT times. It's an innovation of the institutional church (organized religion).

Here's a little history...

As far back as Cyprian we discover that tithing wasn't practiced by the church. In fact, Cyprian wrote about how he believed the church should be employ tithing to support the newly established priesthood (based on the Levitical system of the OT). He felt that by sustaining a trained and well paid priesthood with tithes, heretics and false teachers could be dealt with officially. If tithing was a universal practice within the church, why would Cyprian contemplate the church's reaction to such an idea? But we continue... After Constantine and the institutionalization of the church in Rome, the ecclesiastical leadership were in wide open debates on how to fund the priesthood and build cathedrals. The Council of Tours in 567 advocated tithing but it was rejected as a practice to be universally enforced. Bishops began buddying up to royalty and soon tithes were made obligatory by civil law in the Carolingian empire in 765. After the Protestant Reformation tithes didn't become mandatory in England until the tenth century. Soon, the notion of tithing was pumped all over the world through the English colonies in Africa, the Middle East, and Asia. Even after the Revolutions when churches and governments became separated, the notion of tithing continued. And it continues to this very day.

Tithing is essentially a Catholic innovation like the Trinity.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Forced giving is wrong. However, to hurl condemnations at them, is just as bad as them hurling condemnations at you.

Instead, I pray that the Lord open their eyes. I pray that they begin to see the depth to which this form of extortion keeps them bound and often burdens the poor, widow, and orphaned families in their congregations. I pray that they see that the tithe was not considered a burden in the OT because only those professions connected to the life on the land had to tithe (farmers and herdsmen). Under God's law... widows were exempt. The tithe was a 10% agrarian flat tax that sustained the temple, the Levites, and the storehouse for these needy classes. For those in need... the tithe was a blessing, because they received of it. The way the tithe doctrine is managed today, the tithe is a burden on the very classes God's law would have relieved.

I do not pray for their damnation. I pray for them to receive a revelation on "grace giving".

I believe that education is the best approach. Instead of condemning them... educate them. Beat the drum over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over until they either acquiesce to the truth... or their followers begin to see them as the misinformed and desperate leaders they are. Tithing has a true researchable history. It wasn't universally embraced from NT times. It's an innovation of the institutional church (organized religion).

Here's a little history...

As far back as Cyprian we discover that tithing wasn't practiced by the church. In fact, Cyprian wrote about how he believed the church should be employ tithing to support the newly established priesthood (based on the Levitical system of the OT). He felt that by sustaining a trained and well paid priesthood with tithes, heretics and false teachers could be dealt with officially. If tithing was a universal practice within the church, why would Cyprian contemplate the church's reaction to such an idea? But we continue... After Constantine and the institutionalization of the church in Rome, the ecclesiastical leadership were in wide open debates on how to fund the priesthood and build cathedrals. The Council of Tours in 567 advocated tithing but it was rejected as a practice to be universally enforced. Bishops began buddying up to royalty and soon tithes were made obligatory by civil law in the Carolingian empire in 765. After the Protestant Reformation tithes didn't become mandatory in England until the tenth century. Soon, the notion of tithing was pumped all over the world through the English colonies in Africa, the Middle East, and Asia. Even after the Revolutions when churches and governments became separated, the notion of tithing continued. And it continues to this very day.

Tithing is essentially a Catholic innovation like the Trinity.

Maybe God is opening their eyes through ME!
I just might be the answer to your prayer brother.
Think about that for a minute...


Rom 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. 18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple


Did the Apostles teach tithing in the original church of his day?....I rest my case.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by Sean

Brother, take some backsliders to coffee on a regular basis....then ask them about their "problems" with the church. You will find that they are mostly legitimate problems. You will generally find tithing(men) and standards(women) at the top of the list, for anyone of them that have any biblical knowledge and are not back in deep sin.

Now ask sinners what they think of the churches today. You will see that the #1 thing that they say is ..."the church is a business" or "all they want is your money".

Where do you think they got that idea?


Do you think Paul was realizing that fact and tried to keep money(mammon) out of the picture of the ministry as much as possible?....ie Acts 20 to the elders.


Brother, regarding your age(31), you are my "target" audience. The "next" generation that must make the changes that I have been advocating!

Brother I don't disagree with your theology concerning tithing just your vehement stance against it altogether. I agree a preacher should not make tithing a salvation issue to the church, but I don't think anything it is wrong showing it as a old Testament type of giving and using it as a good standard to go by (note: I didn't say only standard to go by). I do btw set down and spend much time with sinners and if tithing has ever came up in are talks I don't have a memory of it being in the negative. In fact I have many memories of most saying they feel they should. I have heard people down preachers for their use of the money and how many preachers want hand outs etc., but the people in this bible belt area I live see the tithe as the Lord's. They give as unto the Lord and not to man so they don't complain about it. If anyone out there makes any commitment just because they fear man they might as well not give it anyway. When people feel like they are giving to God there is no problem with any amount it is when they feel they are giving to man that they struggle. The sad thing is that the people you hear complaining about tithing isn't sinners or new converts but it is many times just backslid ministers of the gospel.

[FlamingZword]

Originally Posted by bishoph

Bro. Jason, I understand your argument, however, you have not addressed the majority of my post......you are a scholarly young man, and even though I strongly disagree with the direction you have taken doctrinally (based on what I have read on this forum) I value your writings and enjoy discussions from time to time. That said.....again you have ignored the greater part of my post. The fact remains that if tithe was originally a tenth (which it was) and if tithes were given under the law, then the church should be more generous NOT less. (I have read some of your posts about tithing and I know that YOU believe in giving abundantly not sparingly/grudgingly, however that is NOT my experience with MOST who hold your opinion.)

I do believe that the early church had the law as a precedent and therefore because they were a tithing culture/people giving was probably a non-issue to them. Because of their strong "law" based giving structure the "freewill" offerings were most likely MORE than a tithe not less. Remember the early church was a Judaeo church and the influence of their Judaism was palpable for many years......I assure you it did influence their giving as well.

Regardless of our differences my friend, my main objective in entering this discussion was to point out the judgmental and pompous spirit and attitude that was being spewed out by our friend Sean on this topic. To wish and even pray for pastors and leaders to die because they teach something that you feel is in error is NOT the spirit of Christ. When the disciples saw some not of their persuasion casting out devils in the name of Christ....they forbid them and rebuked them.....Jesus let them know they had the wrong spirit and just a few verses later they wanted to call down fire from heaven and destroy folks who rejected Jesus....yet Jesus rebuked them because they "knew not what spirit they were of." Such diatribe makes it easy for one to say then his teaching must be in error as well, because he says God has told him this and made this MORE IMPORTANT than winning souls and sharing the Gospel of Jesus Christ. There is NOTHING more important to God than saving the lost......it was/is so important that he robed himself in flesh and died to redeem man from the curse. But NOW correcting the tithe teaching pastors is MORE important.....PLEASE.

Dear Bishop

I fully agree with you.

After Sean threaten to kill people who disagree with him, I simply lost respect for that brother.

This is the same spirit of those so called "Christians" who killed other Christians who disagree with them in a doctrine.

He only displays the hatred he has for his brethren, "Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." 1 John 3:15

I have simply put Sean in ignore, I will not longer tolerate the disrespect and abuse he heaps upon brethren who disagree with him.