Actually I did post a few times, but I left after seeing that biblical arguments for the tithe were not seriously considered. There is no point in talking to people who refuse to accept the Bible as the final arbiter of truth.
Tithing has been debunked and destroyed.
In your mind only.
Y'all lose every argument because yall can't back up your position with scripture
I have never lost for I did back up my position with plenty of scriptures, your group simply refused to consider biblical arguments. I did not lose, I simply quit debating with a bunch of people who refuse bible text for their beliefs.
unless y'all make weird allegories like Untraditional does.
AFF has a debate section where two people can debate a topic. I challenge you or anyone (preferably a fellow pastor) to a moderated debate on the subject of tithing.
I have already debated your group and I am not going again thru endless arguments with people who refuse to accept biblical texts for their doctrine.
Go on take a vacation and enjoy the money you are not paying in tithes.
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**Original Matthew 28:19 Restored**
Nah. Too many people are too eager to tear fellow believers to shreds. There are heresies that deserve your strong language. Those who affirm gays can be Christians and even go so far as to marry them. Those who believe Muslims are saved w/o repenting and trusting in Christ. And others.
Your best argument against those who teach tithes (and standards) is they are perverting the gospel by works-righteousness. However even though that be the case I'm not so sure I'd say folks who teach tithing or standards are committing the same heresy as the Judaizers and condemn them to hell. I strongly disagree with Steve Epley and others on here. But really do I think they're going to hell? No, I would be surprised. Its possible, especially since Steve Epley condemns everyone. If he was judged by his own measure that'd be tough on him. But I believe the grace of God will keep those who trust in Him despite their ignorance and even arrogance.
As for Paul cleaning their clock, in one sense that's probably true for all Christian denominations and people. However I think you would do well to read Romans 14:9-14. Who are you to judge another's servant?
Brother, that passage is not about FALSE TEACHERS reprobating the church and driving a stumblingblock between the church and community, it is about a mans' "personal convictions". I believe I have been DEFENDING the truth in the same manner Paul or Peter would have....vigorously
I have already debated your group and I am not going again thru endless arguments with people who refuse to accept biblical texts for their doctrine.
Go on take a vacation and enjoy the money you are not paying in tithes.
So I ask you to back up your position with a reasoned, scriptural, moderated debate and all you can say is blah blah blah? Typical. You have an indefensible position, perhaps you should have written tithing into the version of the Bible you made that edited Matthew 28:19.
And I will be taking a vacation after Thanksgiving, to Disney. I won some tickets then pitched in some money so I could take a single mom and her two kids who otherwise would probably never get that opportunity to go.
I've been blessed to do things I never imagined. My income has more than quadrupled since I quit tithing and began freewill giving, expanding my giving not just to the church but other ministries and especially to people in need as I feel led.
But none of that matters, its all pragmatic. The only thing that matters is what do the scriptures teach. And you're not really interested or able to defend your doctrinal position.
If anyone else believes the tithe is required of new testament believers I'm open to a reasoned, scriptural, moderated debate.
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"Resolved: That all men should live to the glory of God. Resolved, secondly: That whether or not anyone else does, I will." ~Jonathan Edwards
"The only man who has the right to say he is justified by grace alone is the man who has left all to follow Christ." ~Dietrich Bonheoffer, The Cost of Discipleship
"Preachers who should be fishing for men are now too often fishing for compliments from men." ~Leonard Ravenhill
Brother, that passage is not about FALSE TEACHERS reprobating the church and driving a stumblingblock between the church and community, it is about a mans' "personal convictions". I believe I have been DEFENDING the truth in the same manner Paul or Peter would have....vigorously
Romans 14 is about false teachers? I'm pretty sure its about Christian liberty. But the point I was making is that the people your are damning to hell and cursing with death are Christians and thus while you are within your right to warn them of perceived error, you are usurping Gods place by judging them with death and hell. Its very concerning to me you believe God has spoken this to you.
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"Resolved: That all men should live to the glory of God. Resolved, secondly: That whether or not anyone else does, I will." ~Jonathan Edwards
"The only man who has the right to say he is justified by grace alone is the man who has left all to follow Christ." ~Dietrich Bonheoffer, The Cost of Discipleship
"Preachers who should be fishing for men are now too often fishing for compliments from men." ~Leonard Ravenhill
We must be cautious of "biblio-idolatry". What brings true depth in spiritual matters is hearing personally from the Spirit of God.
I don't deny God can speak (simply because He is the Living God), but I'm pretty cautious about people claiming God speaks to them, especially on a regular basis, and based on that authority condemn other believers.
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"Resolved: That all men should live to the glory of God. Resolved, secondly: That whether or not anyone else does, I will." ~Jonathan Edwards
"The only man who has the right to say he is justified by grace alone is the man who has left all to follow Christ." ~Dietrich Bonheoffer, The Cost of Discipleship
"Preachers who should be fishing for men are now too often fishing for compliments from men." ~Leonard Ravenhill
I don't deny God can speak (simply because He is the Living God), but I'm pretty cautious about people claiming God speaks to them, especially on a regular basis, and based on that authority condemn other believers.
Amen. What I found interesting in my study of Quakerism is how Quakers value not only the notion that God speaks personally to each individual... but how each individual and each body does its best not to impose its convictions on other bodies and individuals. If Apostolics could grasp this concept, it would easy tensions while also honoring God given convictions.
I don't deny God can speak (simply because He is the Living God), but I'm pretty cautious about people claiming God speaks to them, especially on a regular basis, and based on that authority condemn other believers.
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
I don't know if you guys have read this before or not. However, I believe that God spoke to me personally and clearly at least once. I had to write down what I felt was being said to my spirit. I'll share it here as an example of what I'm talking about... I wrote this down a good while back...
It's been said that, "Just a little talk with Jesus makes it right." Well, I tried this. And what happened has left me astounded. I was speaking to the LORD in prayer recently I began to ask Him, "Why are we so divided?", and, "What must I do to be holy?" And this is the message that I felt burning in my heart so hot that I had to simply type it out as the power overwhelmed me… (I paraphrase in that it all came as a block of emotions to my spirit... not necessarily words). So, here it is... my little talk with the LORD....
Me:
"Why are we so divided?"
"What must I do to be holy?"
God:
My child, I will tell you why you are all so divided. It is your religions. They are not of me. Each of you has a list. A list of do’s and don’ts. And each of you think that I authored your respective lists. Baptists have their list, Catholics have their lists, Pentecostals have their lists, Methodists have their lists, Lutherans have their lists, Charismatics have their lists, Messianics have their lists, Episcopals have their lists… each list is different. I’m not a God of confusion. Each list is a doctrine of man. Some say you must keep the Ten Commandments that I delivered to Moses to give to my people. Some of you expand upon these and add feast days, Sabbaths, dietary regulations, linguistic nuances of eccentricity wherein you think you are shown to be wise, yet you are looking foolish in your conceits. You want to be so much like my people… but not like me. You fail to realize… I’m the eternal, the constant, the source; the Alpha, the Omega, the beginning, the ending, the all in all, the great I AM that I AM… I’m not Catholic, Protestant, or Evangelical… neither am I Jewish. I’m GOD. Still some of you have codified my teachings into a strict body of church law in which you seek to please me by changing your “behavior”… but not your “being”. Teachings of mine were for spiritual development, they were not intended to be turned into dry do’s and don’ts to maintain a religious status quo. Then some of you codified the methods with which I addressed issues in Israel or the first generation of churches... making them “commandments” instead of seeing the spirit behind the reasoning. A reasoning that endures in any context, be it time or culture. Then you added historical traditions established by various religious leaders and founders. You codified congregation structures, financial models, added liturgies, added dietary regulations, added special days of worship, added dress codes, even added prohibitions on both men and women I never required. Each of you has these LISTS! Stop trying to please me by living these man-made lists! They divide you because you measure yourselves against one another based on your respective man-made LISTS. Ask the Pharisees to list exactly what must be done to please me! Let them present their LISTS! And suddenly you’ll see them all squabbling over which commandments have to be obeyed and which list is correct! Why? It is because the spirit of legalism leaves you awash in the sea of subjective personal interpretation wherein one man’s interpretation is just as good as another’s. Yet you cling to them because you think they make you “holy”. These lists don’t make you holy. What makes you Holy is… ME.
You see… I am the Vine, and you are the branches. You are called to be living extensions of me… not living extensions of the ancient nation of Israel, your given church, or your given denomination. You are called to be conformed into the image and likeness of Christ… not the image and likeness of your respective church, movement, or denomination. When you live by their LISTS… you are becoming like them… NOT like me.
And so you ask… How do I become like you? I, the LORD, shall answer you this day. Let him who has an ear, let him hear!!!...
The answer is in the very nature of my being my beloved. You see… I AM… love. When you are loving, gracious, forgiving, kind, compassionate, patient, long suffering, temperate, and giving… you are being like Me. Do you wish to fulfill “the law”??? DON’T live by it. Find its core. Find its essence. Find my reason for delivering said laws in their given contexts. You’ll discover that it is because I was teaching many different things… but the core was and always has been… MY love. Love me my child. Love me with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength. And demonstrate your love for me by loving others as yourself. If you do this you will have fulfilled the essence of MY law. If there is any other commandment ever brought to your attention, know this… it is fulfilled in this single statement, “Love thy neighbor as thyself.” In this you do no wrong… and in loving… you become like me… the one who is love itself.
So be not swayed by their LISTS. Do not be deceived by their vain and eccentric verbiage. Do not emulate a nation, a denomination, or a church. Instead… emulate Me and you will find rest for your souls. Love Me with all your being… and show me that you love Me by loving others as yourself. The only commandment I give you is this… LOVE. For love will not murder, steal, covet, slander, commit adultery, rage, revenge, or blaspheme. Love will set every day aside as holy… because love seeks to give absolute devotion every single day without end. I am not impressed with your LISTS. First, your lists all differ. And second, you don’t even keep your own lists perfectly! This makes you hypocrites of the worst kind. Why do you do this to yourselves??? Do you really think I’m IMPRESSED by anything you do? Am I impressed by any cherry picked LIST of commandments you’ve chosen to embrace… at the expense of others that you chose not to? Do you really think I’m going to open the books and judge you by each of your respective lists???! Will I judge according to dress code, hairstyles, feast days, and your labored mispronunciations of an ancient language??? Will I praise you for acting Jewish… even though if the truth were to be told… you don’t have a single drop of Hebrew blood in your body??? No. When you stand before Me… I will only seek to know two things: Did you love me with all your being? Did you seek to show your love for me by loving others as yourself? And you’ll then begin to see how your LISTS hindered you from loving your neighbors. You will see how your lusts, adulteries, thievery, slander, etc. are not rooted in failing to obey a rule on a LIST… but in your failure to LOVE. For love does no harm to the object of its affection.
So I leave you with this… become like Me. Be conformed into the very image and likeness of Jesus Christ, my beloved Son. And in this you will find true holiness. In this you will find the law of liberty… the law of LOVE. You will have discovered… ME.
One reason why we really don't see many "deep" Apostolic teachers is because most teaching is designed to strictly advance the ideals of the given organizations they are a part of. They are given no fresh Word from the Lord or spiritual insights that challenge our worldly and conventional thinking as it relates to spiritual matters.
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