Without Holiness . . .

[Carl]

One of the best definitions of holiness I ever heard was "holiness is the expression of God from within us". I want it to be God, not just that I am trying to line up with the rules or making myself look better than others.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

We live holy because we have been made holy

Oh? If that's all there is why does Peter COMMAND US TO be holy? Why do we need INSTRUCTIONS of things to DO?

13Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 14As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: 15But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; 16Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. 1 Peter 1:13-16

God tells his people be holy for I am holy. He does not assume they are all holy.

And very importantly we see in verse 14 that holiness is related to OBEDIENCE!

God counts no man (Christian) as holy who is not OBEDIENT.

Certainly God gives us the power to be holy. Its not in mans will but in the MIGHTY SPIRIT OF YHWH!

And Yet there is STILL A WALK OF FAITH. If a man is filled with the Spirit he then must BELIEVE the word of God including commandments. BY FAITH he will then DO the will of God.

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I'm saddened by this too. However, it is only because that in the mainline Apostolic organizations, and the interpretations of the majority of pastors, "holiness" is primarily defined by outward standards of dress and appearance.

[Godsdrummer]

[QUOTE=Michael The Disciple;1333153]Oh? If that's all there is why does Peter COMMAND US TO be holy? Why do we need INSTRUCTIONS of things to DO?

13Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 14As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: 15But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; 16Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. 1 Peter 1:13-16

God tells his people be holy for I am holy. He does not assume they are all holy.

And very importantly we see in verse 14 that holiness is related to OBEDIENCE!

God counts no man (Christian) as holy who is not OBEDIENT.

Certainly God gives us the power to be holy. Its not in mans will but in the MIGHTY SPIRIT OF YHWH!

And Yet there is STILL A WALK OF FAITH. If a man is filled with the Spirit he then must BELIEVE the word of God including commandments. BY FAITH he will then DO the will of God.

Gal 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Christ gave one commandment, Love God, and love your neighbor as yourself. What other commandments are you referencing? This is just what Paul is instructing the church in Galatia.

You quote Peter, speaking of "obedience, obedience to who? The pastor, the so called man of God? Scripture says we are to remember those that have spoken to us the word of God. And to be persuaded of them. Nowhere does scripture say we are obey a man.
If one understands what Peter is saying in relation to what Paul taught in Galatians. We rest in Christ righteousness, that in God's eyes we are holy, else we could not approach him. But just because we walk and live by the grace of God, does not give us liberty to live any way we please.
As Peter says, "we are to be holy in all manner of behavior, not as we used to be when we lived by our own lust".
This is not a holiness that can be defined by man, it is a holy life style, "conversation", that is reflected by our love of God and our fellow man.

[Michael The Disciple]

[QUOTE=Godsdrummer;1333306]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Oh? If that's all there is why does Peter COMMAND US TO be holy? Why do we need INSTRUCTIONS of things to DO?

13Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 14As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: 15But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; 16Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. 1 Peter 1:13-16



Gal 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Christ gave one commandment, Love God, and love your neighbor as yourself. What other commandments are you referencing? This is just what Paul is instructing the church in Galatia.

You quote Peter, speaking of "obedience, obedience to who? The pastor, the so called man of God? Scripture says we are to remember those that have spoken to us the word of God. And to be persuaded of them. Nowhere does scripture say we are obey a man.
If one understands what Peter is saying in relation to what Paul taught in Galatians. We rest in Christ righteousness, that in God's eyes we are holy, else we could not approach him. But just because we walk and live by the grace of God, does not give us liberty to live any way we please.
As Peter says, "we are to be holy in all manner of behavior, not as we used to be when we lived by our own lust".
This is not a holiness that can be defined by man, it is a holy life style, "conversation", that is reflected by our love of God and our fellow man.

It never seems to fail. Did I say ANYTHING about obedience to a man?

[Michael The Disciple]

Christ gave one commandment, Love God, and love your neighbor as yourself. What other commandments are you referencing?

Well we could tell you Matthew Chapters 5-7 WOULD BE A GOOD PLACE TO START.

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Well we could tell you Matthew Chapters 5-7 WOULD BE A GOOD PLACE TO START.

Sorry not one things outside Matthew chapters 5-7 fall outside the statement, to love God, and love your neighbor as yourself.
Do you not see that? if we love God and our neighbor we fulfill the whole commandment of God.

It never seems to fail. Did I say ANYTHING about obedience to a man?

As with the definition of holiness, within most apostolic church groups obedience to the pastor in more important than obedience to God. There for I ask the question, "obedience to who?"

My primary point, to even entering this conversation, is to simply say, holiness is not and cannot be defined by ANY list of rules, or codes to live by other than to love God with your whole being, and love your neighbor as yourself.
Even Christ said on this rest the whole law of God.

Mat_5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Mat_5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Mat_5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

Joh_13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

Joh_15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
Joh_15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

Rom_13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Rom_13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Rom_13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Gal_5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

I could continue to quote passages but as John wrote, "they that love not, know not God, for God is love". Hence true holiness, is based on our love for one another, not a list of rules.

But the other primary point, I want to drive home is, that when we are saved, we are covered by the righteousness of Christ, we have been sanctified, and justified.

[good samaritan]

Loving your brother would include how you dress? If a lady wears something that could cause men to struggle with lust she isn't loving that man or possibly his wife. If she wears a mans garment it could be viewed that she doesn't respect the roles God has placed as man and woman. Those two commandments to love can stretch a long way. It is not all about dress and I believe people are entitled to their own interpretations of things, but we should all truly love God and man. That carries a lot more weight than what people often interpret.