Water/Spirit Doctrine Destroyed Beautifully

[Chateau d'If]

Taken from the following site:

http://www.bereanresearchinstitute.c...spel_True.html

"1. The United Pentecostal Church International (UPCI) adds to the simplicity of the Gospel of Salvation that is taught by Jesus Christ - and that is in Jesus Christ (II Cor 11:2-4) - by teaching that, to be born again, a person must do certain physical acts, namely:
a. Be baptized in water (which they claim is burial in Christ), and

b. Speak in tongues (which they claim is proof of resurrection in the Spirit)
2. Note that Eph 2:8,9 refutes this doctrine of 'works' salvation. (There is nothing that a person can 'do' physically to be saved. One must only 'do' non-physical things - i.e. repent from sin and surrender the heart to God. Salvation pertains to the state of the heart; not to that of the body. That is one reason why we cannot be saved by our works.)

3. Therefore, these doctrines taught by UPCI can become an offence to those who might otherwise be interested in Salvation, but who are offended by the "additional requirements" - namely water baptism and tongues-speaking - (Matt 18:6; Mark 9:42; I Cor 10:32), which the UPCI consider to be essential and integral parts of Salvation and not mere "additions" to it at all.

4. It is important that we don't change the word of God (Deut 4:2; Prov 30:6; Rev 22:18, Acts 15:5), that we don't receive another spirit (I John 4:1; II Cor 11:4), and that we don't offend others away from the truth (in this case by adding extra requirements to the true gospel.) (Matt 18:6)

5. One of the passages that the UPCI often uses to support its teaching that water baptism is necessary for salvation is John chapter 3. So, let's examine whether the UPCI interpretation of this passage is valid.

6. John 3: 3-7 3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again."

[Chateau d'If]

Continued...

"7. Jesus coined the phrase "born again" and introduced it here for the first time in scripture. The phrase clearly refers to a second birth.

8. Nicodemus misunderstood the term and asked for clarification, thinking that Jesus was speaking of being born twice physically - both times from the mother's womb.

9. Jesus was talking about being born twice - but only once physically and once spiritually. He acknowledged Nicodemus' understanding of being born:
a. physically (the first birth), by saying, "Except a man be born of water", and

b. spiritually (the second birth - hence "born again"), by saying, "and of the Spirit". Then he presented the consequence: "he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."
10. To repeat (and thereby to underscore his explanation), Jesus said, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh" referring to the first birth, "and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit", referring to the second birth.

11. That was a very straightforward answer - first birth (water/flesh) and second birth (Spirit/spirit), which Jesus himself suggested by saying, "marvel not...."

[Chateau d'If]

Continued....

"13. Another way of stating it would be, as follows:
1st Birth - is of water - produces flesh
2nd Birth - is of Spirit - produces spirit
14. A baby in the womb is in amniotic fluid, ie. "water". The use of the word 'water' as a descriptor of a physical birth continues today, such as in the phrase "her water broke" when describing a labour/delivery.

15. Another point to understand is that the phrase "Born of water" cannot be a reference to water baptism, because a person is not "born" in any sense when he is water baptized. When he is water baptized it does not make him born for the first time, and it does not make him born for the second time ("born again") either - neither by UPCI doctrine (which requires a further step for one to be born again), nor by scripturally sound doctrine (which doesn't make the act of water baptism a part of the Salvation process at all.)

16. "Born of water" can only refer to a physical birth - the first birth - just like Jesus said - a birth that produces flesh (or a live body).

17. "Born of the Spirit" refers to a spiritual birth - a re-birth, or second birth - hence "Born again" - just like Jesus said - a birth that produces spirit (or a live spirit)

18. Jesus thoroughly answered Nicodemus' question about being "born again". He defined the second birth after providing context by first defining the first birth.

19. If it is possible that any reader would still disagree with this reasoning and conclusion, then we would appreciate knowing his/her:
a. explanation of the "first" birth that is implied by Jesus' reference to the second birth, and

b. reasons for believing that Jesus ignored Nicodemus' direct question about the first birth. (Jesus spoke of a second birth - born again - and clearly wasn't referring to two spiritual births when he did so.)"

[mizpeh]

I still believe that the baptisms is the new birth but if you are looking for alternative explanations, the one you chose is not the best, imo.

Try reading Constable's notes on John 3:5. He discusses different views.

https://net.bible.org/#!bible/John+3

[mizpeh]

Again Jesus prefaced a further affirmation with the statement that guaranteed its certainty. Entering the kingdom and seeing the kingdom (v. 3) seem to be synonymous terms, though the former may be a bit clearer. There are several views of the meaning of being born of water and the Spirit. The verse and its context contribute much to our understanding of this difficult phrase.

Whatever its meaning, “born of water and the Spirit” must equal being born “again” or “from above” (v. 3) since Jesus used this phrase to clarify the new birth for Nicodemus. Second, the definite article translated “the” before “Spirit” is absent in the Greek text. The English translators have inserted it to clarify their interpretation of “spirit” (Gr. pneuma) as the Holy Spirit. A more literal translation would be simply “born of water and spirit.” Third, the construction of the phrase in the Greek text indicates that the preposition “of” governs both “water” and “Spirit.” This means that Jesus was clarifying regeneration by using two terms that both describe the new birth. He was not saying that two separate things have to be present for regeneration to happen. It has but one source. Fourth, Jesus’ criticism of Nicodemus for not understanding these things (v. 10) indicates that what He taught about the source of regeneration was clear in the Old Testament.

The only view that seems to be consistent with all four of these criteria is as follows. The Old Testament often used water metaphorically to symbolize spiritual cleansing and renewal (Num. 19:17-19; Isa. 55:1-3; cf. Ps. 51:10; Jer. 2:13; 17:13; Zech. 14:8). God’s spirit (or Spirit) in the Old Testament represents God’s life (Gen. 1:2; 2:7; 6:3; Job 34:14). God promised that He would pour out His spirit on people as water (Isa. 32:15-16; Joel 2:28-29). The result of that outpouring would be a new heart for those on whom the spirit came (Jer. 31:31-34). Thus the revelation that God would bring cleansing and renewal as water by His Spirit was clear in the Old Testament. Jesus evidently meant that unless a person has experienced spiritual cleansing and renewal from God’s spirit (or Spirit) he or she cannot enter the kingdom. This is what He meant by being born from above or again (cf. 1 Cor. 6:11).[147]
Another view proposed by many scholars is that “water” is an allusion to the amniotic fluid in which a fetus develops in its mother’s womb. Other scholars see it as a euphemistic reference to the semen without which natural birth is impossible. In either case “water” refers to physical or natural birth while “spirit” refers to spiritual or supernatural birth.[148] They claim that Jesus was saying that natural birth is not enough. One must also experience supernatural birth to enter the kingdom. However this use of “water” is unique in Scripture. Moreover it assumes that two births are in view whereas the construction of the Greek phrase favors one birth rather than two. If two were in view, there would normally be a repetition of the preposition before the second noun.

Another popular view is that “water” refers to the written Word of God and “spirit” refers to the Holy Spirit. This figurative use of “water” does exist in the New Testament (cf. Eph. 5:26), but it is uncommon in the Old Testament. It is unlikely that Nicodemus would have associated water with the Word of God, and it would have been unfair for Jesus to rebuke him for not having done so. This view, as the former one, also specifies two separate entities whereas the Greek text implies only one as the source of regeneration.
Some commentators take the “water” as an allusion to water baptism and the “spirit” as referring to the Holy Spirit.[149] According to this view spiritual birth happens only when a person undergoes water baptism and experiences regeneration by the Holy Spirit. Some advocates of this view see support for it in the previous reference to water baptism (1:26 and 33). However, Scripture is very clear that water baptism is a testimony to salvation, not a prerequisite for it (cf. 3:16, 36; Eph. 2:8-9; Titus 3:5). In addition, this meaning would have had no significance for Nicodemus. He knew nothing of Christian baptism. Furthermore Jesus never mentioned water baptism again in clarifying the new birth to Nicodemus.

Others have suggested that the “water” could be a reference to the repentance present in those who underwent John’s water baptism and the “spirit” an allusion to the Holy Spirit.[150] In this case, repentance as a change of mind is necessary as a prerequisite for salvation. According to advocates of this view Jesus was urging Nicodemus to submit to John’s baptism as a sign of his repentance, or at least to repent. The weakness of this view is that the connection between water and repentance is distant enough to cause misunderstanding. Nicodemus’ response (v. 9) expressed lack of understanding. If the connection between water and John’s baptism were that clear, he would not have responded this way. It would have been simpler for Jesus just to say “repentance” if that is what He meant. Repentance in the sense of the fruit of a mental change is not necessary for salvation since by that definition repentance is a meritorious work.
Some scholars believe that “water” refers to the ritual washings of Judaism and “spirit” to the Holy Spirit. They think Jesus was saying that Spirit birth rather than just water purification was necessary for regeneration. However, Jesus was not contrasting water and spirit but linking them.
Finally at least one writer understood that when Jesus said “spirit” He meant it in the sense of wind (Gr. pneuma) and used it as a symbol of God’s life-giving work.[151],” Bibliotheca Sacra 135:539 (July-September 1978):206-20.

This view holds that the wind is parallel to the water that also symbolizes God’s supernatural work of regeneration. However this is an unusual though legitimate meaning of pneuma. In the immediate context (v. 6) pneuma seems to mean spirit rather than wind. This fact has led almost all translators to render pneuma as “spirit” rather than as “wind” in verse 5, even though it means “wind” in verse 8.


https://net.bible.org/#!bible/John+3

[Chateau d'If]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

I still believe that the baptisms is the new birth but if you are looking for alternative explanations, the one you chose is not the best, imo.

Try reading Constable's notes on John 3:5. He discusses different views.

https://net.bible.org/#!bible/John+3

Thank you, Mizpeh.

[navygoat1998]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Again Jesus prefaced a further affirmation with the statement that guaranteed its certainty. Entering the kingdom and seeing the kingdom (v. 3) seem to be synonymous terms, though the former may be a bit clearer. There are several views of the meaning of being born of water and the Spirit. The verse and its context contribute much to our understanding of this difficult phrase.

Whatever its meaning, “born of water and the Spirit” must equal being born “again” or “from above” (v. 3) since Jesus used this phrase to clarify the new birth for Nicodemus. Second, the definite article translated “the” before “Spirit” is absent in the Greek text. The English translators have inserted it to clarify their interpretation of “spirit” (Gr. pneuma) as the Holy Spirit. A more literal translation would be simply “born of water and spirit.” Third, the construction of the phrase in the Greek text indicates that the preposition “of” governs both “water” and “Spirit.” This means that Jesus was clarifying regeneration by using two terms that both describe the new birth. He was not saying that two separate things have to be present for regeneration to happen. It has but one source. Fourth, Jesus’ criticism of Nicodemus for not understanding these things (v. 10) indicates that what He taught about the source of regeneration was clear in the Old Testament.

The only view that seems to be consistent with all four of these criteria is as follows. The Old Testament often used water metaphorically to symbolize spiritual cleansing and renewal (Num. 19:17-19; Isa. 55:1-3; cf. Ps. 51:10; Jer. 2:13; 17:13; Zech. 14:8). God’s spirit (or Spirit) in the Old Testament represents God’s life (Gen. 1:2; 2:7; 6:3; Job 34:14). God promised that He would pour out His spirit on people as water (Isa. 32:15-16; Joel 2:28-29). The result of that outpouring would be a new heart for those on whom the spirit came (Jer. 31:31-34). Thus the revelation that God would bring cleansing and renewal as water by His Spirit was clear in the Old Testament. Jesus evidently meant that unless a person has experienced spiritual cleansing and renewal from God’s spirit (or Spirit) he or she cannot enter the kingdom. This is what He meant by being born from above or again (cf. 1 Cor. 6:11).[147]
Another view proposed by many scholars is that “water” is an allusion to the amniotic fluid in which a fetus develops in its mother’s womb. Other scholars see it as a euphemistic reference to the semen without which natural birth is impossible. In either case “water” refers to physical or natural birth while “spirit” refers to spiritual or supernatural birth.[148] They claim that Jesus was saying that natural birth is not enough. One must also experience supernatural birth to enter the kingdom. However this use of “water” is unique in Scripture. Moreover it assumes that two births are in view whereas the construction of the Greek phrase favors one birth rather than two. If two were in view, there would normally be a repetition of the preposition before the second noun.

Another popular view is that “water” refers to the written Word of God and “spirit” refers to the Holy Spirit. This figurative use of “water” does exist in the New Testament (cf. Eph. 5:26), but it is uncommon in the Old Testament. It is unlikely that Nicodemus would have associated water with the Word of God, and it would have been unfair for Jesus to rebuke him for not having done so. This view, as the former one, also specifies two separate entities whereas the Greek text implies only one as the source of regeneration.
Some commentators take the “water” as an allusion to water baptism and the “spirit” as referring to the Holy Spirit.[149] According to this view spiritual birth happens only when a person undergoes water baptism and experiences regeneration by the Holy Spirit. Some advocates of this view see support for it in the previous reference to water baptism (1:26 and 33). However, Scripture is very clear that water baptism is a testimony to salvation, not a prerequisite for it (cf. 3:16, 36; Eph. 2:8-9; Titus 3:5). In addition, this meaning would have had no significance for Nicodemus. He knew nothing of Christian baptism. Furthermore Jesus never mentioned water baptism again in clarifying the new birth to Nicodemus.

Others have suggested that the “water” could be a reference to the repentance present in those who underwent John’s water baptism and the “spirit” an allusion to the Holy Spirit.[150] In this case, repentance as a change of mind is necessary as a prerequisite for salvation. According to advocates of this view Jesus was urging Nicodemus to submit to John’s baptism as a sign of his repentance, or at least to repent. The weakness of this view is that the connection between water and repentance is distant enough to cause misunderstanding. Nicodemus’ response (v. 9) expressed lack of understanding. If the connection between water and John’s baptism were that clear, he would not have responded this way. It would have been simpler for Jesus just to say “repentance” if that is what He meant. Repentance in the sense of the fruit of a mental change is not necessary for salvation since by that definition repentance is a meritorious work.
Some scholars believe that “water” refers to the ritual washings of Judaism and “spirit” to the Holy Spirit. They think Jesus was saying that Spirit birth rather than just water purification was necessary for regeneration. However, Jesus was not contrasting water and spirit but linking them.
Finally at least one writer understood that when Jesus said “spirit” He meant it in the sense of wind (Gr. pneuma) and used it as a symbol of God’s life-giving work.[151],” Bibliotheca Sacra 135:539 (July-September 1978):206-20.

This view holds that the wind is parallel to the water that also symbolizes God’s supernatural work of regeneration. However this is an unusual though legitimate meaning of pneuma. In the immediate context (v. 6) pneuma seems to mean spirit rather than wind. This fact has led almost all translators to render pneuma as “spirit” rather than as “wind” in verse 5, even though it means “wind” in verse 8.


https://net.bible.org/#!bible/John+3

[n david]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Again Jesus prefaced a further affirmation with the statement that guaranteed its certainty. Entering the kingdom and seeing the kingdom (v. 3) seem to be synonymous terms, though the former may be a bit clearer. There are several views of the meaning of being born of water and the Spirit. The verse and its context contribute much to our understanding of this difficult phrase.

Whatever its meaning, “born of water and the Spirit” must equal being born “again” or “from above” (v. 3) since Jesus used this phrase to clarify the new birth for Nicodemus. Second, the definite article translated “the” before “Spirit” is absent in the Greek text. The English translators have inserted it to clarify their interpretation of “spirit” (Gr. pneuma) as the Holy Spirit. A more literal translation would be simply “born of water and spirit.” Third, the construction of the phrase in the Greek text indicates that the preposition “of” governs both “water” and “Spirit.” This means that Jesus was clarifying regeneration by using two terms that both describe the new birth. He was not saying that two separate things have to be present for regeneration to happen. It has but one source. Fourth, Jesus’ criticism of Nicodemus for not understanding these things (v. 10) indicates that what He taught about the source of regeneration was clear in the Old Testament.

The only view that seems to be consistent with all four of these criteria is as follows. The Old Testament often used water metaphorically to symbolize spiritual cleansing and renewal (Num. 19:17-19; Isa. 55:1-3; cf. Ps. 51:10; Jer. 2:13; 17:13; Zech. 14:8). God’s spirit (or Spirit) in the Old Testament represents God’s life (Gen. 1:2; 2:7; 6:3; Job 34:14). God promised that He would pour out His spirit on people as water (Isa. 32:15-16; Joel 2:28-29). The result of that outpouring would be a new heart for those on whom the spirit came (Jer. 31:31-34). Thus the revelation that God would bring cleansing and renewal as water by His Spirit was clear in the Old Testament. Jesus evidently meant that unless a person has experienced spiritual cleansing and renewal from God’s spirit (or Spirit) he or she cannot enter the kingdom. This is what He meant by being born from above or again (cf. 1 Cor. 6:11).[147]
Another view proposed by many scholars is that “water” is an allusion to the amniotic fluid in which a fetus develops in its mother’s womb. Other scholars see it as a euphemistic reference to the semen without which natural birth is impossible. In either case “water” refers to physical or natural birth while “spirit” refers to spiritual or supernatural birth.[148] They claim that Jesus was saying that natural birth is not enough. One must also experience supernatural birth to enter the kingdom. However this use of “water” is unique in Scripture. Moreover it assumes that two births are in view whereas the construction of the Greek phrase favors one birth rather than two. If two were in view, there would normally be a repetition of the preposition before the second noun.

Another popular view is that “water” refers to the written Word of God and “spirit” refers to the Holy Spirit. This figurative use of “water” does exist in the New Testament (cf. Eph. 5:26), but it is uncommon in the Old Testament. It is unlikely that Nicodemus would have associated water with the Word of God, and it would have been unfair for Jesus to rebuke him for not having done so. This view, as the former one, also specifies two separate entities whereas the Greek text implies only one as the source of regeneration.
Some commentators take the “water” as an allusion to water baptism and the “spirit” as referring to the Holy Spirit.[149] According to this view spiritual birth happens only when a person undergoes water baptism and experiences regeneration by the Holy Spirit. Some advocates of this view see support for it in the previous reference to water baptism (1:26 and 33). However, Scripture is very clear that water baptism is a testimony to salvation, not a prerequisite for it (cf. 3:16, 36; Eph. 2:8-9; Titus 3:5). In addition, this meaning would have had no significance for Nicodemus. He knew nothing of Christian baptism. Furthermore Jesus never mentioned water baptism again in clarifying the new birth to Nicodemus.

Others have suggested that the “water” could be a reference to the repentance present in those who underwent John’s water baptism and the “spirit” an allusion to the Holy Spirit.[150] In this case, repentance as a change of mind is necessary as a prerequisite for salvation. According to advocates of this view Jesus was urging Nicodemus to submit to John’s baptism as a sign of his repentance, or at least to repent. The weakness of this view is that the connection between water and repentance is distant enough to cause misunderstanding. Nicodemus’ response (v. 9) expressed lack of understanding. If the connection between water and John’s baptism were that clear, he would not have responded this way. It would have been simpler for Jesus just to say “repentance” if that is what He meant. Repentance in the sense of the fruit of a mental change is not necessary for salvation since by that definition repentance is a meritorious work.
Some scholars believe that “water” refers to the ritual washings of Judaism and “spirit” to the Holy Spirit. They think Jesus was saying that Spirit birth rather than just water purification was necessary for regeneration. However, Jesus was not contrasting water and spirit but linking them.
Finally at least one writer understood that when Jesus said “spirit” He meant it in the sense of wind (Gr. pneuma) and used it as a symbol of God’s life-giving work.[151],” Bibliotheca Sacra 135:539 (July-September 1978):206-20.

This view holds that the wind is parallel to the water that also symbolizes God’s supernatural work of regeneration. However this is an unusual though legitimate meaning of pneuma. In the immediate context (v. 6) pneuma seems to mean spirit rather than wind. This fact has led almost all translators to render pneuma as “spirit” rather than as “wind” in verse 5, even though it means “wind” in verse 8.


https://net.bible.org/#!bible/John+3

Good info

[Steve Epley]

Goofy.

[aegsm76]

Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?

Can any man refuse water seeing these have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?