Question?

[Revelationist]

Yep...

[shazeep]

Really, all one need do is carry your assertions to their conclusion to see that what has been given you is a vengeful, spiteful, petty, known God; not the Master of the Universe. Not Love. Pray tell, what happens to those who have--gasp--had, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit proclaimed over their water baptism, in your--pardon me--twisted model?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by ILG

The Biblical directive was to call upon the name in baptism. So why don't Jesus name preachers believe that it is enough for the person being baptized to do that?? (Acts 22:16) Why do they think a 3rd party has to do it for them? I think it is legalistic to say that a 3rd party must utter the name for the recipient. I think it is extra-biblical to say that if a recipient calls on the name it is not enough.

That's really the issue though isn't it? That's what I said before. You are assuming your biblical view is correct and ours is not and is therefore not up for debate.

You see Jesus commanded the Apostles to go out and baptize "in the name". We can wrangle over the meaning of the rest of that if you want but when Peter preached on Pentecost he said literally "Repent and get yourself baptized (Passive) in the name of Jesus"..

He was not to baptize Himself. He was to allow someone to baptize him "In Jesus name". So the biblical command was for the baptizer to do something and the baptizee to allow or submit to it.

I'll post something I wrote about why we say the name in the next post

[Praxeas]

Baptism and Discipleship...

Baptism is part of a teacher's discipleship.

Mat 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

We can see this in the gospels

Joh 4:1 Now when Jesus learned that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John
Joh 4:2 (although Jesus himself did not baptize, but only his disciples),

That this baptism was done in water is evident

Joh 3:22 After this Jesus and his disciples went into the Judean countryside, and he remained there with them and was baptizing.
Joh 3:23 John also was baptizing at Aenon near Salim, because water was plentiful there, and people were coming and being baptized

And we can see baptism was linked to discipleship in Acts

Act 19:1 And it happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the inland country and came to Ephesus. There he found some disciples.
Act 19:2 And he said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" And they said, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit."
Act 19:3 And he said, "Into what then were you baptized?" They said, "Into John's baptism."
Act 19:4 And Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus."
Act 19:5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

You can see that they taught AND baptized disciples.

Furthermore, Jesus commissioned the church to go out and make people disciples unto Jesus, so we are authorized to do that.

Baptism in "Jesus name" both signifies by what authority we do such things but also signifies whose Disciple we are.

I believe this was part of Paul's point in 1Cor

1Co 1:12 But I say this, that each of you says, I am of Paul, and I of Apollos, and I of Cephas, and I of Christ.
1Co 1:13 Has Christ been divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized into the name of Paul?
1Co 1:14 I give thanks to God that I did not baptize any one of you, except Crispus and Gaius,
1Co 1:15 that not anyone should say that you were baptized in my name.

Notice some believed they were "of" Paul or Apollos or Cephas and then Paul connects that to baptism? Futher more Paul seems to connect some claiming to be "of Paul" with whether or not they were baptized "In the name of Paul" or that Paul himself had baptized others..

This is why we baptize "In the name of Jesus", because we are not making disciples to ourselves but unto Him. We are the body of Christ so we are His proxy here on earth to make people HIS disciples for Him.

Mat 28 speaks of discipleship but it also emphasizes AUTHORITY. All Authority in heaven and earth is given to Christ, so therefore ALL authority is His.

The terms "Father, Son and Spirit" represents God's work in heaven and on earth. The Father's throne is heaven. The Son redeemed man here on earth and rules on the throne of David and the Spirit completes and continues the work of God in and through the Church here on earth (I believe Holy Spirit is a sort of circumlocution for the Shekina Glory).

"Name" refers to a Persons authority. "Name" also refers to the Person Himself. "Name" is often used as an idiomatic way of saying "Person".

So all the authority of Heaven and Earth is His. All the authority and domain of the Father, Son and Spirit is also His.

That is why we baptize in HIS name. That is why and how the Apostoles understood His words and baptized in HIS Name. Because all the authority is HIS and we are making people disciples unto HIM.

Further understanding of Name/Person and Authority can be learned from other texts

Act 4:12 And there is salvation in no other One; for there is no other name under Heaven given among men by which we must be saved.

Mat 1:21 And she shall bear a son, and you shall call His name JESUS: for He shall save His people from their sins.

Act 3:16 And His name, through faith in His name, has made this man strong, this one whom you see and know, His name made firm. And the faith which came through Him has given him this perfect soundness before you.

Act 10:43 All the Prophets give witness to Him, that through His name whoever believes in Him shall receive remission of sins.

Act 15:14 Even as Simon has declared how God at the first visited the nations to take out of them a people for His name.

Php 2:9 Therefore God has highly exalted Him, and has given Him a name which is above every name,
Php 2:10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of heavenly ones, and of earthly ones, and of ones under the earth;
Php 2:11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by ILG

If some guy says it and he is right, it should be done. If some guy says it and he is wrong, the person doesn't have to do it. But they might think the guy is right and do it and then they get on a slippery path.

So then you can see that the REAL issue is not accusing others of legalism but determining what the bible says.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by ILG

You can do all of those things, but if you tell a person "unless you are baptized with a preacher saying the name Jesus over top of you, you are lost" I think you are wrong and unbiblical.

Fair enough. I believe opposite. May the Lord reveal the truth as He sees fit.

[shazeep]

Amen. Them with ears, hear.

Originally Posted by Praxeas

So then you can see that the REAL issue is not accusing others of legalism but determining what the bible says.

I'm certainly not interested in accusing anyone of anything, legalism included. It can be easy to take the post for the person on a forum, when we are discussing strongly held beliefs, on purpose--not living our daily lives, wherein our true natures, hearts, are revealed. Therefore, i really have no conception of any of you as people, at least in a sense.

"You pore over the Scriptures because you think you have eternal life in them, yet they testify about Me."

You will never know Christ by sitting in a room all day reading Scripture. I don't care if you read for a million years. You cannot worship--which means follow--Christ in that building you know as church. It's as simple as that. You cannot accept Christ with your mouth. Baptism is just a symbol, but it is usually, too often, made into the end product of an ersatz salvation for one who was called in fear, and will be placed, effectively, in a tomb. Admit it--the next step for a new convert in that system is to then teach them standards by which they are to determine who to exclude. This is the inevitable result of the doctrine of Original Sin. You are freed from the Law of sin and death, in Christ; not bound more tightly to it.

There is a lesson in the Eskimo meme; measure it if you will:

Eskimo: So, if i did not know about sin, would i still go to hell?
Priest: No, you would not.
Eskimo: Then why did you tell me?

See that this man was not brought Salvation--freedom--but Condemnation, death. Using the baptism symbol, one could best be described here as drowning. The entire point is to bury all that. Leave it all behind. You are freed from the Law of sin and death. At your best, you would never notice another's sin for the rest of your life, being too immersed in demonstrating Life, more abundantly, which the 'lost' will naturally flock to. If you think you need to practice holiness--i do--by all means do so. Quietly. While i personally have determined that looking for any other 'standard' than the Holy Spirit, in the moment, is pointless, coming from "all (who) have sinned, and come short..."--or their interpretations--everyone is different there, perhaps. But if you think I need to follow some standard, you have lost the point. Fatally.

[aegsm76]

shaz - you really are all over the board. As you say, a post is sometimes hard to understand.
However, many times when I read your posts, I wonder if you believe that it was necessary for Jesus to be crucified and rise from the dead for us to be saved.
Can you address this?

[MawMaw]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Baptism and Discipleship...

Baptism is part of a teacher's discipleship.

Mat 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

We can see this in the gospels

Joh 4:1 Now when Jesus learned that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John
Joh 4:2 (although Jesus himself did not baptize, but only his disciples),

That this baptism was done in water is evident

Joh 3:22 After this Jesus and his disciples went into the Judean countryside, and he remained there with them and was baptizing.
Joh 3:23 John also was baptizing at Aenon near Salim, because water was plentiful there, and people were coming and being baptized

And we can see baptism was linked to discipleship in Acts

Act 19:1 And it happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the inland country and came to Ephesus. There he found some disciples.
Act 19:2 And he said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" And they said, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit."
Act 19:3 And he said, "Into what then were you baptized?" They said, "Into John's baptism."
Act 19:4 And Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus."
Act 19:5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

You can see that they taught AND baptized disciples.

Furthermore, Jesus commissioned the church to go out and make people disciples unto Jesus, so we are authorized to do that.

Baptism in "Jesus name" both signifies by what authority we do such things but also signifies whose Disciple we are.

I believe this was part of Paul's point in 1Cor

1Co 1:12 But I say this, that each of you says, I am of Paul, and I of Apollos, and I of Cephas, and I of Christ.
1Co 1:13 Has Christ been divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized into the name of Paul?
1Co 1:14 I give thanks to God that I did not baptize any one of you, except Crispus and Gaius,
1Co 1:15 that not anyone should say that you were baptized in my name.

Notice some believed they were "of" Paul or Apollos or Cephas and then Paul connects that to baptism? Futher more Paul seems to connect some claiming to be "of Paul" with whether or not they were baptized "In the name of Paul" or that Paul himself had baptized others..

This is why we baptize "In the name of Jesus", because we are not making disciples to ourselves but unto Him. We are the body of Christ so we are His proxy here on earth to make people HIS disciples for Him.

Mat 28 speaks of discipleship but it also emphasizes AUTHORITY. All Authority in heaven and earth is given to Christ, so therefore ALL authority is His.

The terms "Father, Son and Spirit" represents God's work in heaven and on earth. The Father's throne is heaven. The Son redeemed man here on earth and rules on the throne of David and the Spirit completes and continues the work of God in and through the Church here on earth (I believe Holy Spirit is a sort of circumlocution for the Shekina Glory).

"Name" refers to a Persons authority. "Name" also refers to the Person Himself. "Name" is often used as an idiomatic way of saying "Person".

So all the authority of Heaven and Earth is His. All the authority and domain of the Father, Son and Spirit is also His.

That is why we baptize in HIS name. That is why and how the Apostoles understood His words and baptized in HIS Name. Because all the authority is HIS and we are making people disciples unto HIM.

Further understanding of Name/Person and Authority can be learned from other texts

Act 4:12 And there is salvation in no other One; for there is no other name under Heaven given among men by which we must be saved.

Mat 1:21 And she shall bear a son, and you shall call His name JESUS: for He shall save His people from their sins.

Act 3:16 And His name, through faith in His name, has made this man strong, this one whom you see and know, His name made firm. And the faith which came through Him has given him this perfect soundness before you.

Act 10:43 All the Prophets give witness to Him, that through His name whoever believes in Him shall receive remission of sins.

Act 15:14 Even as Simon has declared how God at the first visited the nations to take out of them a people for His name.

Php 2:9 Therefore God has highly exalted Him, and has given Him a name which is above every name,
Php 2:10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of heavenly ones, and of earthly ones, and of ones under the earth;
Php 2:11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father

Excellent study on baptism and discipleship!
Thank you for sharing!!

[Monterrey]

Prax, it won't matter, they won't see.

Nothing like having eyes but not seeing, having ears and not hearing.