Author Marlene Winell says it well:
"The most serious demand for unquestioned belief is, of course, the atonement. First, the believer is to suspend familiar notions of justice, such as punishment of the guilty as opposed to an innocent party. You are then expected to accept the necessity of blood sacrifice for sin; that wrongdoing must be paid for, and not necessarily in proportion to the crime. A father's sacrifice of his innocent son is supposed to be not only just but generous and wonderful. Then the temporary three-day death [actually about thirty-six hours] of this one person is supposed to wipe out all the wrongdoing and ineptitude of the species. And finally, you should believe that all you need do to erase the responsibility for your actions and enter a haven of eternal reward is to believe. It's no wonder that once a convert has wrapped his or her mind around this story, anything can be accepted as truth."
Yep the classical substitutionary model of atonement sucks...
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You better watch out before I blitzkrieg your thread cause I'm the Thread Nazi now!
Author Marlene Winell says it well:
"The most serious demand for unquestioned belief is, of course, the atonement. First, the believer is to suspend familiar notions of justice, such as punishment of the guilty as opposed to an innocent party. You are then expected to accept the necessity of blood sacrifice for sin; that wrongdoing must be paid for, and not necessarily in proportion to the crime. A father's sacrifice of his innocent son is supposed to be not only just but generous and wonderful. Then the temporary three-day death [actually about thirty-six hours] of this one person is supposed to wipe out all the wrongdoing and ineptitude of the species. And finally, you should believe that all you need do to erase the responsibility for your actions and enter a haven of eternal reward is to believe. It's no wonder that once a convert has wrapped his or her mind around this story, anything can be accepted as truth."
Yep. That's pretty much my view of it.
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
Suppose you are traveling through a strange but friendly country, and decide to lodge overnight in a strange but friendly motel on edge of a (strange but friendly) village. Overnight, your youngest daughter is murdered in bed. Next morning, the police and the mayor of the town hold an immediate murder trial, because the suspect is already caught, with insurmountable evidence. This town is not a democracy, and no one questions the authority, righteousness, and power of the long-standing mayor. He is all they know and trust regarding law, justice, morality. When the killer is proven guilty, and stands for sentencing, the mayor proclaims, "I forgive you, you are now
free to go." The townfolk, although momentarily surprised, begin to clap in praise of the mayor's merciful "sentence." The mayor is always right, and everyone knows it, that is, everyone except the traveling family with a still dead daughter.
In like manner, Christians assume that their god can somehow, some way claim the right to forgive sins and wrongdoing that never really affected the god at all (except in some imagined theological sense.) In most cases, it doesn't much matter WHO killed whom, who hurt whom, or who stole from whom, if only the criminal converts to "true" Christianty, the god says it's all forgiven, and the one ACTUALLY OFFENDED has little or no say in the matter! Sure, the bible implies restitution if and where practical, but it's not a bedrock part of the gospel--rather only belief and "repentance" count, and no matter that repentance is never measurable according to future behavior, because one can always repent from "falling short" of one's original repentance! (How convenient.)
If the above "justice system" is not outright IMMORAL, then nothing is. A real God (or even any god having at least a 9th grade education) could
deliver unto mankind a moral system that does not need to first overturn common human decency--the kind of decency and morality we use every day (such as that based upon empathy.) Thankfully, regular people and their justice systems, though flawed and sometimes corrupt, do a better job at enforcing human decency and practical morality than anything accomplished by any of your desert gods.
Suppose you are traveling through a strange but friendly country, and decide to lodge overnight in a strange but friendly motel on edge of a (strange but friendly) village. Overnight, your youngest daughter is murdered in bed. Next morning, the police and the mayor of the town hold an immediate murder trial, because the suspect is already caught, with insurmountable evidence. This town is not a democracy, and no one questions the authority, righteousness, and power of the long-standing mayor. He is all they know and trust regarding law, justice, morality. When the killer is proven guilty, and stands for sentencing, the mayor proclaims, "I forgive you, you are now
free to go." The townfolk, although momentarily surprised, begin to clap in praise of the mayor's merciful "sentence." The mayor is always right, and everyone knows it, that is, everyone except the traveling family with a still dead daughter.
In like manner, Christians assume that their god can somehow, some way claim the right to forgive sins and wrongdoing that never really affected the god at all (except in some imagined theological sense.) In most cases, it doesn't much matter WHO killed whom, who hurt whom, or who stole from whom, if only the criminal converts to "true" Christianty, the god says it's all forgiven, and the one ACTUALLY OFFENDED has little or no say in the matter! Sure, the bible implies restitution if and where practical, but it's not a bedrock part of the gospel--rather only belief and "repentance" count, and no matter that repentance is never measurable according to future behavior, because one can always repent from "falling short" of one's original repentance! (How convenient.)
If the above "justice system" is not outright IMMORAL, then nothing is. A real God (or even any god having at least a 9th grade education) could
deliver unto mankind a moral system that does not need to first overturn common human decency--the kind of decency and morality we use every day (such as that based upon empathy.) Thankfully, regular people and their justice systems, though flawed and sometimes corrupt, do a better job at enforcing human decency and practical morality than anything accomplished by any of your desert gods.
Ho slippery road,
away from God we go
slippery road along we go
There will be a judgment day and in that day the righteous judge will judge all the earth. Not according to our human understanding but a divine understanding far beyond that which we could understand.
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**Original Matthew 28:19 Restored**
ha--that's a good way to put it--my reply was going to be, "yet look what that has got you."
i think you have some issues with your story; right off the top, there are no murderers in towns like that; your story ignores how murderers are made. And yes, we have Cain, and surely other examples, but i'm talking in general, and now, in the time of Grace, and not in the time of Law. Murderers are not allowed in that town, however. They might be in every other town; you might hear 'news' stories about others getting murdered, etc., but murderers would not be comfortable in that town anyway; the 'rumors' from the surrounding towns even keep them away.
So, your imagination has gone awry, imo, from jump street. So, everything that proceeds from there will be yack, but to continue--you left out the part where the mayor, a verifiable figure in history, at least, if not all of His exploits, lived a perfect life and yet died in the most horrible way, for all of the towns sins; oh ya, and every other decision hHe has ever made, even if it seemed ridiculous at the time, worked out for the best. You have a reflection in your reaction to haughty v humble people here; how you would treat each differently, that we call part of the 'mystery.' Counter-intuitively, it 'works' to be humble.
Finally--and again, these are just for starters--you assume that you would be allowed to spend the night--or even visit--this town, when you would not be allowed to, either. For the same reason there are no murderers, there are no people in this town uncommitted to the mayor's way. Did i say 'finally?' I could go on; if somehow your satanic scenario were to occur, anyone in the town could restore your daughter to life, no problem.
As Christians, we know for a fact, and have witnessed, that God can forgive our sins--which effectively means "pull our fat from the fire," because He has in some way demonstrated this to each of us; and then, at our 'surprise,' when we were thinking "You're nuts," He told us to do whatever we wanted there, in our own affairs, when the shoe was on the other foot--there is no requirement to do the same thing--as long as you live in any of the other towns.
I think it is sad that satan has so infected our 'churches' that you might have this view of God--Who after all just wishes to impart "Love your neighbor" to you--but that is already prophesied. Contrary to the yack they are dishing out (still) in many established churches here in the West, Christ's advice to anyone applying for citizenship in this town is, "Count the cost," and "Every inch of skin will be stripped from you." No recruiting in fear. No coercion.
Note that you are not dead--well, not physically--and yet you have committed offenses for which, when committed against you, you would strongly desire death for the offender. You are forgiven, if you will but accept it. Peace to you.
ha--that's a good way to put it--my reply was going to be, "yet look what that has got you."
i think you have some issues with your story;
No, just because you may have issues with my story doesn't mean that I do, too. Every analogy breaks down at some detail. Mine does too, that doesn't mean the point is inaccurate. The point is that the desert god and the absurd gospel makes christians suspend their otherwise normal sense of morality. Bad behavior and sick beliefs are labeled "good"merely because the god supposedly said so, instead of the ability of a supposed god to make a consistent case for that which is already inherently good, and to reflect said "case" in the god's own behavior and/or communication . Pathetic that the omniscient and omnipotent desert god wasted such an opportunity.
No, just because you may have issues with my story doesn't mean that I do, too. Every analogy breaks down at some detail. Mine does too, that doesn't mean the point is inaccurate. The point is that the desert god and the absurd gospel makes christians suspend their otherwise normal sense of morality. Bad behavior and sick beliefs are labeled "good"merely because the god supposedly said so, instead of the ability of a supposed god to make a consistent case for that which is already inherently good, and to reflect said "case" in the god's own behavior and/or communication . Pathetic that the omniscient and omnipotent desert god wasted such an opportunity.
Saw this on Facebook the other day:
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
The point is that the desert god and the absurd gospel makes christians suspend their otherwise normal sense of morality...Bad behavior and sick beliefs are labeled "good"...Pathetic that the omniscient and omnipotent desert god wasted such an opportunity.
Hmm, not sure how "Love your neighbor" could cause anyone to 'suspend normal morality..." and "Bad behavior and sick beliefs are labeled 'good;' " could you give an example?...and as to the last, i see reflections of pretty much every kid on earth, telling a parent how much they hate them, wadr. I think you got these doctrines from men, and not God.
No, just because you may have issues with my story doesn't mean that I do, too. Every analogy breaks down at some detail. Mine does too, that doesn't mean the point is inaccurate. The point is that the desert god and the absurd gospel makes christians suspend their otherwise normal sense of morality. Bad behavior and sick beliefs are labeled "good"merely because the god supposedly said so, instead of the ability of a supposed god to make a consistent case for that which is already inherently good, and to reflect said "case" in the god's own behavior and/or communication . Pathetic that the omniscient and omnipotent desert god wasted such an opportunity.
I see the root of bitterness is producing leafs.
obviously you have been watering and fertilizing it, keep on going it will produce nice fruit eventually.
enjoy eating the fruit of bitterness.
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**Original Matthew 28:19 Restored**
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