Jesus....Not God?

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Ev. Duane Williams

I haven't been on in about, forever, but I was wondering about this new doctrine (not really new) cropping up among Apostolics that Jesus was just a man and not God, and this "profound epiphany" solves all the tough questions Trinitarians throw at Oneness folks. How pervasive is this new wind of doctrine among the rank and file, and is there any effort underway for something to be done about it?

I've not seen that happening. Though it really isnt a very far step from saying (as most apostolics do) that jesus human nature prayed to his divine nature. It's not a very far step to go from that to jesus is a man with god insdie him.

[Sean]

Some say Jesus had a divine nature of his own, yet he was full of the Holy Ghost(Luke 4:1). Kinda looks like 2 divine spirits in Him, unless... the Holy Ghost(or The FATHER) in him was actually his so called, divine nature. (thats what I believe and teach)


Besides that, What is the definition of a "divine nature"?

I mean,,,Does God have a "divine nature"? (what is that)?

[SRM]

What People Said About Jesus In The New Testament

Millions today believe Jesus Christ is God,in fact those same millions would almost agree and say one of the reasons they killed the Lord Jesus was because "He claimed to be God".I would like to take a look in the New Testament and let us just see if anyone thought Jesus was God or even worse had what some say a "dual nature" or even if anyone thought Jesus was the 2nd person of the Godhead.






Mar 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;

Mark wrote that Jesus is The Son of God




Mar 1:11 And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

God said Jesus was "my beloved Son"



Mat 4:3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.

The Devil-Satan said..and asked..If thou be The Son of God..


Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Peter confessed that Jesus was The Christ,the Son of the living God






Act 9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
Act 9:18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.
Act 9:19 And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus.
Act 9:20 And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.

Paul preached...Jesus is The Son of God





Mat 27:54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.


The Centurion said...Jesus was the Son of God





Act 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.


Peter preached that God anointed the man Jesus with the Holy Ghost




Joh 1:34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

The beloved John wrote...Jesus is the Son of God




Joh 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

John tells us WHY He wrote his book....that we might believe Jesus is the Christ..the Son of God





Mat 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Jesus confesses He has a God and therefore NOT God (Can God have a God and still be God?)




Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

The Angel Gabriel told Mary the baby she shall have shall be called The Son of God (nothing about an impersonal nature)





Mar 5:7 And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.

The evil spirit confessed that Jesus is the Son of the most High God





Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Jesus while praying tells His Father that He is the only true God..If there is one God and Jesus calls the Father God then.....



Did Jesus Tell the Sanhedrin He Was God?

It is most significant that neither the witnesses nor Sanhedrin members accused Jesus of ever claiming to be God. Jews had so accused Jesus twice in his career; yet both times he denied their accusation 5.16-47; 10.30-38). Apparently, they accepted his denial.

If Jesus had ever claimed to be God, “it is inconceivable… that it should not come out in the charges against him at the trial, where again the worst that can be said about him is that he claimed to be ‘God’s son.’”





Mat 27:37 And set up over his head his accusation written, THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS.

The sign put over the head of Jesus at his crucifixion said that Jesus is the King of the Jews



How many times must the New Testament say for people to believe what was said about Jesus?


Looking back at Matthew 16 I wanted to point out this last interesting fact.Jesus asked his disciples WHO DO PEOPLE SAY I AM?

How many times have you read this but never consider WHAT WAS SAID BY THE PEOPLE or even the other disciples besides Peter? The focus has always been placed on Peter's confession but look at what others said about Jesus when Jesus himself asked the question


Mat 16:13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

Mat 16:14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?



DID ANYONE EVEN THINK HE WAS MESSIAH yet alone God?...yet churches today teach one of the reasons or THE reason Jesus was killed was becaused He claimed to be God?



Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Peter confessed Jesus is THE SON OF GOD..nothing about being God,the 2nd person,a dual nature man,the flesh part of God or even God manifested in flesh.The disciples,towns people,Jews,Sanhedrin never thought Jesus was God but rather THE son of God..

This is the preponderance of scripture...what will you do with the truth?

[Originalist]

Jesus is God because God said Jesus was God.

What SRM is forgetting is that there are a number of Old Testament prophecies that are referring to Jehovah, or where Jehovah refers to himself, and these prophecies are fulfilled by Jesus Christ. This is what the exaltation of the man Christ Jesus accomplished. God now operates through and receives worship exclusively by the Son. Had the man Christ Jesus rejected the will of God, then the Spirit would have departed from him and he would have been just an ordinary man. But because he remained obedient unto the death of the cross, God exalted him to the point where He does not even want to be acknowledged except through his Son. The Godhead is in Jesus.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Originalist

Jesus is God because God said Jesus was God.

What SRM is forgetting is that there are a number of Old Testament prophecies that are referring to Jehovah, or where Jehovah refers to himself, and these prophecies are fulfilled by Jesus Christ. This is what the exaltation of the man Christ Jesus accomplished. God now operates through and receives worship exclusively by the Son. Had the man Christ Jesus rejected the will of God, then the Spirit would have departed from him and he would have been just an ordinary man. But because he remained obedient unto the death of the cross, God exalted him to the point where He does not even want to be acknowledged except through his Son. The Godhead is in Jesus.

Amen, the Godhead is in Jesus.,

However brother, SRM is tripping on the DUAL/NATURE concept that I brought up in the prior post. It is not biblical. It was an invented phrase by us oneness believers that demands to be defined. I taught it for 20 years or so...I should know.

When I would teach it in those days, it was like I was saying Jesus had a man part and a God part of His own. Kind of like a split personality in one.

When the fog started clearing, I realized Jesus had the baptism of the Holy Ghost. That was actually the Spirit of His Father inside Him.

However, I believe as you all know by now, Jesus was resurrected and Is now the express image of Almighty God, which, with the fullness of the Godhead is in Him BODILY, makes Him our God.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Sean

Some say Jesus had a divine nature of his own, yet he was full of the Holy Ghost(Luke 4:1). Kinda looks like 2 divine spirits in Him, unless... the Holy Ghost(or The FATHER) in him was actually his so called, divine nature. (thats what I believe and teach)


Besides that, What is the definition of a "divine nature"?

I mean,,,Does God have a "divine nature"? (what is that)?

The Divine Spirit he was "full of" was His own Divine Spirit

Nature refers to a set of qualities and or attributes that determines whatever kind something or someone else.

Rocks have nature. Birds have nature

God has a Divine nature. He has Divine qualities and attributes. He has a Divine Mind, Will, Spirit, Thoughts, Power, Wisdom etc etc

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Sean

Amen, the Godhead is in Jesus.,

However brother, SRM is tripping on the DUAL/NATURE concept that I brought up in the prior post. It is not biblical. It was an invented phrase by us oneness believers that demands to be defined. I taught it for 20 years or so...I should know.

When I would teach it in those days, it was like I was saying Jesus had a man part and a God part of His own. Kind of like a split personality in one.

When the fog started clearing, I realized Jesus had the baptism of the Holy Ghost. That was actually the Spirit of His Father inside Him.

However, I believe as you all know by now, Jesus was resurrected and Is now the express image of Almighty God, which, with the fullness of the Godhead is in Him BODILY, makes Him our God.

Sean,

This is the lowest possible view of Christ. It denies he pre existed. If he never pre existed how did he make the world?

1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, and the world didn’t recognize him. John 1:10

If he never pre existed how did he see satan fall from Heaven?

10:18 He said to them, “I saw Satan having fallen like lightning from heaven. Luke 10:18

If he never pre existed how was he before John?

1:30 This is he of whom I said, ‘After me comes a man who is preferred before me, for he was before me. John 1:30

If he did not pre exist how did he see Abraham?

8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day. He saw it, and was glad.” John 8:56

If he did not pre exist how could h

[Sean]

The Divine Spirit he was "full of" was His own Divine Spirit, QUOTE PRAXEUS



Prax, that is what I struggled with, (what you just said). When I saw Jesus had the actual Holy Ghost and likewise noticed He said, "the Father that is IN me, He doeth the works", then thinking Jesus had a "DIVINE" nature of his own. My conclusion was more than one divine "being".

Now by removing the divine nature idea from my vocabulary, It became much more understandable to teach.

I just simply said the Father was INSIDE the Son.

Trust me when I say JESUS IS GOD. I just believe, in his 33 years on earth he was a completely human being, wth NO special, God like nature of his own. Simply put, Adam was a completely human being and so was Jesus(the 2nd or last Adam)

[Sean]

Sean,

This is the lowest possible view of Christ. It denies he pre existed. If he never pre existed how did he make the world?

1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, and the world didn’t recognize him. John 1:10

If he never pre existed how did he see satan fall from Heaven?

10:18 He said to them, “I saw Satan having fallen like lightning from heaven. Luke 10:18

If he never pre existed how was he before John?

1:30 This is he of whom I said, ‘After me comes a man who is preferred before me, for he was before me. John 1:30

If he did not pre exist how did he see Abraham?

8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day. He saw it, and was glad.” John 8:56

If he did not pre exist how could h QUOTE MICHAEL THE DISCIPLE

(HEY BRO. SOMETING HAPPENED TO YOUR POST)

Brother Michael, your new Testament verses can be easily explained as the Father inside of Jesus, speaking to the pharisees about the past that "He saw". Jesus in John 14, admits "the words that I speak are not of myself"...(not my words)..."but the Father that DWELLETH IN ME. He doeth the works"
That is why he said..."before Abraham was, I AM"...That was Jehovah God talking to those pharisees.




Brother, if you believe Jesus actually physically preexisted, then you have more than one divine being.

Notice these passages...

Rev 13:8...And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. (Jesus was murdered before the world was even created)...by whom?

Col. 1:15....Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
(Jesus was born before Adam or any living thing that was created)

Colossians 1:18
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.(Jesus resurrected from the dead before all of these examples to follow)......

Old Testament

Elijah resurrected the son of Zarephath's widow
Elijah resurrected the son of the great Shunammite woman
Even after he was dead, the anointing still remaining in Elisha's bones raised someone from the dead.

New Testament
Jesus resurrects the widow's son at Nain
Jesus raises Jairus' daughter from the dead
Jesus raises Lazarus from the dead
Many saints resurrected at Jesus' crucifixion

Matthew 27:52-53 (KJV)
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
But wait, it says Jesus was the firstborn of the Resurrection. He was resurrected before these folks.



Romans 4
17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.(brother Michael, these things I mention above are not contradictory, but in reality, God speaks of things that DO NOT EXIST, as though it they do exist.)

Same as Jesus creating the world. God spoke to His begotten son, even before he was actually born. Ps. 2:7... I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee(this is God speaking to Jesus over 1000 years before he was even begotten. In the mind of God, HE WAS BORN THAT DAY, because God is "timeless")

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Ev. Duane Williams

I haven't been on in about, forever, but I was wondering about this new doctrine (not really new) cropping up among Apostolics that Jesus was just a man and not God, and this "profound epiphany" solves all the tough questions Trinitarians throw at Oneness folks. How pervasive is this new wind of doctrine among the rank and file, and is there any effort underway for something to be done about it?

There will be more and more errant doctrines rise up. Universal reconciliation, homosexuality is not a sin, God does not view Christians as capable of sinning, Christians do not have to ask forgiveness for sin, etc. All these are more recent ones. It will just get worse.