Bott '14

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by n david

Who's talking about a thread? PO mentioned making fun of UPC, making fun of the women (BDW), making fun of how youth dressed at conferences...

I don't see a reference to any thread. I see things mentioned by PO, which IMO, do not compare to a minister publicly attacking a fellow minister.

People make fun of each other all the time...even PO does with her politics!

Really? So why are you mad at JA?

[n david]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

That's weird, how easy was it to find the post that stated - spin like a top to know who you were referencing.

So "spinning like a top" is trademarked by Jason? Before he posted that I was writing that you were changing your story over and over.

Hear ye, hear ye....do not use the words or term someone else has used. Ever. Even if you're not referring to that person's quote at the time you use their words or term. Thus saith PO.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by n david

So "spinning like a top" is trademarked by Jason? Before he posted that I was writing that you were changing your story over and over.

Hear ye, hear ye....do not use the words or term someone else has used. Ever. Even if you're not referring to that person's quote at the time you use their words or term. Thus saith PO.

And now you are spinning.... Why don't liars pants really catch on fire?

[n david]

If he called another minister a name that was bad taste however that does NOT reflect what AM thinks or anyone else but him. It was a statement from him. I was not there but listened to the tape and did not quite come to the conclusion exactly what he meant.

Sis. Alvear, could you clarify what you mean here? Thanks.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

And now you are spinning.... Why don't liars pants really catch on fire?

Seriously? Are you claiming that I didn't write about you changing your story before Jason posted his "spinning like a top?"

You should go back and read the thread. I wrote you were "changing your points" "moving the goalposts" and that we were "going round and round and I'm getting a bit dizzy and bored."

Again, are you claiming that I wasn't saying this before Jason's post? If so, you're wrong....again.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Why would he say that? IMO, he says it because he set out that he identifies the original statement did not come from the minister present, then encourages the minister not to be offended when he insults Maxwell's quote.

Makes. No. Sense.

He didn't insult a quote. Unless the quote was made flesh and was sitting on the platform, he wasn't insulting the quote. And unless Maxwell was sitting on the platform, he wasn't insulting Maxwell. It's basic English.

You're the only one that doesn't think JA was insulting SG. I know you posted something vague from Sis. Alvear:

If he called another minister a name that was bad taste however that does NOT reflect what AM thinks or anyone else but him. It was a statement from him. I was not there but listened to the tape and did not quite come to the conclusion exactly what he meant.

Hopefully she'll come back and say what she meant, because we don't know what she meant by that statement.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by n david

Seriously? You're claiming that I didn't write about you changing your story before Jason posted his "spinning like a top?"

You should go back and read the thread. I wrote you were "changing your points" "moving the goalposts" and that we were "going round and round and I'm getting a bit dizzy and bored."

Again, are you claiming that I wasn't saying this before Jason's post? If so, you're wrong....again.

David, Stop talking to me. You have misrepresented some of my posts and haven't been honest here. I don't want to talk with you any more. You're in the dog house.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

And now you are spinning.... Why don't liars pants really catch on fire?

You're wearing pants? For shame!

[n david]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

David, Stop talking to me. You have misrepresented some of my posts and haven't been honest here. I don't want to talk with you any more. You're in the dog house.

Don't respond to my posts then, or put me on ignore. That's your prerogative.

I haven't misrepresented your points. You're just upset cause I've re-posted your posts showing your inconsistent statements. I have been honest.

[triumphant1]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I know it sounded like he did call SG an idiot, but I've listened to it several times. Let me write it out to discuss it and why I am not 100% certain he is calling SG an idiot. Being that he apologized, it really is a moot point, but I can't get away from how I feel when I hear it, and of course, I could be very wrong being the consensus is that he did insult SG.

"And I don't know which one of you guys said it, and I know that came from John Maxwell because I heard it. Whoever it is, don't get offended, but that junk I heard today about, 'Well, if you have a bunch of hell and chaos and crises in your church, after 3 years being there, it's your fault.' You're an idiot. I've got new dingbats coming in all the time. I'm not responsible for those wackos."

When I hear this, I hear louder than anything - JA establishes that what he is about to say is referencing who he knows said it in the first place. "I KNOW that came from JM". So, he is attributing the quote to someone other than the pastor.

He goes on to quote the quote that had been given that day, "Well, if you have a bunch of hell and chaos and crises in your church, after 3 years being there, it's your fault. You're an idiot."

Now, with him stating that he knows where the quote came from, asks whoever said it not to be offended, and then quoting the statement. Is he calling Maxwell the idiot or the minister the idiot for repeating it?

When I hear it, he is calling Maxwell the idiot. That's just my take.

And of course, being that an offense was taken, which he apologized for, I am not trying to gloss over him insulting either man in public. I just can't be 100% who he is talking to. So, in that, I agree with Sis. Alvear, who was also unclear.

First, I think it is plausible for JA to come back saying, "I meant the original author of said comment was an idiot and not the preacher who quoted him." I don't personally believe that JA would call SG an idiot…I truly don't. Did he use a poor choice of wording…yes. Because his choice of wording can absolutely be taken wrong.

When he said, "Don't be offended" I think he didn't mean "Don't be offended that Im about to call YOU and idiot." I think he meant, "Don't be offended that I am going to refute the idiot you quoted."

Second, I have read a bunch of Maxwell stuff. I have sat in Maxwell seminars in person on several occasions. I have several Maxwell video training sets that I have personally used. I have never heard Maxwell blame any leader for people taking their clothes off, adultery, or any of the other stuff JA put in the context of the quote.

Here's my Maxwell experience. As a leader you have to own your domain. Stand up and take charge. Ultimately, the health of your organization depends on you taking responsibility.

I do remember being taught by someone from this genre that the first three or so years for new leadership has with it an element of taking care of issues that were there before you were--but at some point--usually after three years--the issues you deal with are no longer attached to a predecessor. This teaching was about tenure--not about assigning blame.

At the same time I also know that Maxwell (and the others) have taught that after some time you are no longer dealing with the problems created by leadership blunders from the former administration. Hopefully this is clear…in that context the problems created by poor leadership skills are definitely the current leaders fault.

That is where I think JA goes outside of context. Not that ALL chaos in people's personal lives is the leader's fault but that the chaos created by his poor management as a leader within the organization is his fault by default. JA tied the quote to the personal lives of individuals and that would be inconsistent with any Maxwell material or teachings I have read or sat under. Corporate chaos is another thing all together. Obviously, there would be no need for leadership teaching and training if bad leadership didn't create corporate chaos. In that sense, the chaos is the current leader's fault once the leader has been there long enough to have weeded out the chaos created by bad leadership before he got there.

At some point I can't blame corporate church issues and staff issues on my predecessor. I have to own the fact that I could have done it better. I have to accept responsibility that I may have dropped the ball. Or I have to accept the responsibility that I did it just right but someone didn't like it and went viral.

Either way, I have to own the current circumstance in the church I pastor because the buck stops at my desk and because I have been here long enough that no one even remembers my predecessor was here. How can I blame him when no one in any leadership capacity served under him and most of the congregation has turned over. I don't pastor the church he pastored so i can't blame him.