Bott '14

[n david]

Back to what we know for a fact what JA said...

"Well, if you got a bunch of hell and chaos and crisis in your church after 3 years being there, it's your fault."

I've been going over and over this in my mind, and talking about it with friends in and out of the UPC. At first glance it does appear to be a bad statement. I've even said I don't really agree with it...IF that's in fact what was said. Again, this is what JA says was said, who knows what, if any, embellishment he made or what he didn't include which may have been said to put it in proper context.

I like what MissBrattified posted:

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

I have a feeling it has to do with making pastors take responsibility when their congregations aren't "healthy" instead of pointing fingers at the constituents. That's an important concept for any leader, and deserves exploration at a conference like BOTT.

I totally agree with this. Now, this analysis may be wrong - we haven't heard SG's message - but it's certainly plausible.

Using what JA claimed was said, "Well, if you got a bunch of hell and chaos and crisis in your church after 3 years being there, it's your fault."

Maybe it is something the Pastor is or isn't doing. Are Pastors 100% right all the time, and perfect in their role? Of course not. Yet, IMO, JA is suggestion this very thing: Pastors are always right, saints/sinners are always wrong.

That's not true. There are some Pastors who are the cause of their church's "hell, chaos, and crisis." It's easy for Pastors like JA to point the finger and condemn the saint/sinner for the problems in their church, when really the problem could be with them.

Then again, I could just be an idiot who needs brain surgery...

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by n david

Back to what we know for a fact what JA said...

"Well, if you got a bunch of hell and chaos and crisis in your church after 3 years being there, it's your fault."

I've been going over and over this in my mind, and talking about it with friends in and out of the UPC. At first glance it does appear to be a bad statement. I've even said I don't really agree with it...IF that's in fact what was said. Again, this is what JA says was said, who knows what, if any, embellishment he made or what he didn't include which may have been said to put it in proper context.

I like what MissBrattified posted:


I totally agree with this. Now, this analysis may be wrong - we haven't heard SG's message - but it's certainly plausible.

Using what JA claimed was said, "Well, if you got a bunch of hell and chaos and crisis in your church after 3 years being there, it's your fault."

Maybe it is something the Pastor is or isn't doing. Are Pastors 100% right all the time, and perfect in their role? Of course not. Yet, IMO, JA is suggestion this very thing: Pastors are always right, saints/sinners are always wrong.

That's not true. There are some Pastors who are the cause of their church's "hell, chaos, and crisis." It's easy for Pastors like JA to point the finger and condemn the saint/sinner for the problems in their church, when really the problem could be with them.

Then again, I could just be an idiot who needs brain surgery...

I would go with this one.

You left out the part when JA says, "I refuse to be held hostage to bad behaviour by people who disappoint me. I am not guilty because people do stuff wrong. I am not guilty because people take their clothes off. I am not guilty because people do drugs and watch porno junk. I will not be blamed for that. I teach you how to do right. I try to pray. I fast. I am an honest man. I am a moral man. I pay my bills. I don't scam people. I don't cheat anybody. And because you're an idiot, how come I am getting blamed?"

Why don't we listen to what JA is up in arms about. BECAUSE, I have been there, and know what it feels like to do everything right, and have stupid people do stupid things. It is NOT my fault, and he is saying it is not his either.

So, let's look at our experiences and realize that JA has a good point. I go back to what I stated earlier - JA is pushing back on Maxwell's point because it is a BROADBRUSH to all good men who should not be blamed for the boorish behaviour of other people.

How many times has a man of God left the pulpit exhausted from bearing his heart, trying to pull someone out of the direction of hell and see they couldn't stop the person from their folly.

For heaven's sake, instead of jumping on his case because he is UPC, let's listen to what he is actually saying. I get it! And JA is NOT saying pastors are ALWAYS right. If you have heard anything he has said in the past, you know that to be true.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I would go with this one.

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

You left out the part when JA says, "I refuse to be held hostage to bad behaviour by people who disappoint me. I am not guilty because people do stuff wrong. I am not guilty because people take their clothes off. I am not guilty because people do drugs and watch porno junk. I will not be blamed for that. I teach you how to do right. I try to pray. I fast. I am an honest man. I am a moral man. I pay my bills. I don't scam people. I don't cheat anybody. And because you're an idiot, how come I am getting blamed?"

I understand that, and I would agree with JA on this. But the original quote, IMO, extends beyond this. I highly doubt either Maxwell or SG really believe it's a Pastor's fault if a person sins. Why would they say that...they're both Pastors. IMO, they're speaking of something OTHER than sin. But that's what JA is talking about here -- ordinary sin. I can't wait to watch SG's message to see exactly what context he used, because I believe JA took it out of context and misrepresented what SG said.

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Why don't we listen to what JA is up in arms about. BECAUSE, I have been there, and know what it feels like to do everything right, and have stupid people do stupid things. It is NOT my fault, and he is saying it is not his either.

Again, sin, which is what JA was talking about, isn't the fault of a Pastor. Unless, of course, the Pastor doesn't preach against sin. But I agree, people who sin are guilty themselves. I don't believe SG was talking about sin. Have yet to hear the message, but it makes no sense that a Pastor would put blame on himself and other Pastors for ordinary sin.

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

So, let's look at our experiences and realize that JA has a good point. I go back to what I stated earlier - JA is pushing back on Maxwell's point because it is a BROADBRUSH to all good men who should not be blamed for the boorish behaviour of other people.

I don't think JA had a good point. While I can't prove it at the moment, I believe he took Maxwell and SG's quote out of context. I don't believe they were talking about ordinary sin being the fault of Pastors.

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

How many times has a man of God left the pulpit exhausted from bearing his heart, trying to pull someone out of the direction of hell and see they couldn't stop the person from their folly.

Happens a lot. I grew up in a Pastor's home and know firsthand the exhaustion, stress and burden on a Pastor and wife over trying to help sinners and saints.

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

For heaven's sake, instead of jumping on his case because he is UPC, let's listen to what he is actually saying. I get it! And JA is NOT saying pastors are ALWAYS right. If you have heard anything he has said in the past, you know that to be true.

I'm not "jumping on his case" because he's UPC. If he was part of any other organization, I would have the same opinion. I still have friends and family in the UPC. I may have a few disagreements with it here and there, but am not against it.

[Abiding Now]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I would go with this one.

You left out the part when JA says, "I refuse to be held hostage to bad behaviour by people who disappoint me. I am not guilty because people do stuff wrong. I am not guilty because people take their clothes off. I am not guilty because people do drugs and watch porno junk. I will not be blamed for that. I teach you how to do right. I try to pray. I fast. I am an honest man. I am a moral man. I pay my bills. I don't scam people. I don't cheat anybody. And because you're an idiot, how come I am getting blamed?"

Why don't we listen to what JA is up in arms about. BECAUSE, I have been there, and know what it feels like to do everything right, and have stupid people do stupid things. It is NOT my fault, and he is saying it is not his either.

So, let's look at our experiences and realize that JA has a good point. I go back to what I stated earlier - JA is pushing back on Maxwell's point because it is a BROADBRUSH to all good men who should not be blamed for the boorish behaviour of other people.

How many times has a man of God left the pulpit exhausted from bearing his heart, trying to pull someone out of the direction of hell and see they couldn't stop the person from their folly.

For heaven's sake, instead of jumping on his case because he is UPC, let's listen to what he is actually saying. I get it! And JA is NOT saying pastors are ALWAYS right. If you have heard anything he has said in the past, you know that to be true.

If I'm ever in trouble I want you on my side.

[n david]

"Well, if you got a bunch of hell and chaos and crisis in your church after 3 years being there, it's your fault."

If JA's quote of Maxwell and SG is close to being accurate, would you really consider sin to be hell, chaos and crisis?

JA attacked a straw man.

To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having denied a proposition by replacing it with a different proposition (i.e., "stand up a straw man") and then deny it ("knock down a straw man") instead of the original proposition.

IMO, JA created the illusion of having denied SG's quote by replacing the original context with something else (sin), then denied it (sin) instead of the original context.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by n david

If JA's quote of Maxwell and SG is close to being accurate, would you really consider sin to be hell, chaos and crisis?

JA attacked a straw man.



IMO, JA created the illusion of having denied SG's quote by replacing the original context with something else (sin), then denied it (sin) instead of the original context.

I don't agree. I am remembering several messages, and one especially by Bro. Grisham who talked about how when your church is growing and in revival mode, all chaos is going to come crawling out of the woodworks. Any of us hanging around long enough know that to be true.

He talked about a woman who showed up one night in her jogging suit, two dogs on leashes. He got her a taxi and said, "After we got her on some medication, she was fine."

One preacher talked about how hard it is and the things you go through to bring revival, but when you get that ship in orbit, it will begin to run smoothly. We know that is true.

Personally, if I had worked and gone through the things that JA has gone through, I would have been offended by the comment too.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by n david

I'm not "jumping on his case" because he's UPC. If he was part of any other organization, I would have the same opinion. I still have friends and family in the UPC. I may have a few disagreements with it here and there, but am not against it.

I wasn't speaking to you personally. It was just a general statement.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I don't agree. I am remembering several messages, and one especially by Bro. Grisham who talked about how when your church is growing and in revival mode, all chaos is going to come crawling out of the woodworks. Any of us hanging around long enough know that to be true.

He talked about a woman who showed up one night in her jogging suit, two dogs on leashes. He got her a taxi and said, "After we got her on some medication, she was fine."

One preacher talked about how hard it is and the things you go through to bring revival, but when you get that ship in orbit, it will begin to run smoothly. We know that is true.

Personally, if I had worked and gone through the things that JA has gone through, I would have been offended by the comment too.

I'm just going to wait and see SG's message. And I'm trying to find Maxwell's quote and context. If JA was correct, and Maxwell and SG were talking about sin, I'll be corrected. I'll also post if JA took it out of context, which I'm 97.9999999999999999998% sure he did! Or at least JA didn't include the whole context and thus misrepresented the point of SG's comment.

But again, I could just be an idiot who needs brain surgery!

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by n david

I'm just going to wait and see SG's message. And I'm trying to find Maxwell's quote and context. If JA was correct, and Maxwell and SG were talking about sin, I'll be corrected. I'll also post if JA took it out of context, which I'm 97.9999999999999999998% sure he did! Or at least JA didn't include the whole context and thus misrepresented the point of SG's comment.

But again, I could just be an idiot who needs brain surgery!

Okay. You do the leg work, Mr. Lawyer.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I wasn't speaking to you personally. It was just a general statement.

Just wanted to make sure people could see that while I have an issue with what JA did here, I don't have an issue with the UPC. Nor do I revel in the controversy of this issue. I'm really sad that what I heard was an incredible conference has been sullied by an idiotic comment.