In my opinion, for best advice, Mrsnt should reframe the question she is asking. Not 'should I submit?', but 'Does anyone have any advice on how I work through this issue since my husband and I disagree so strongly?'
Some people would still answer - 'just submit', but others would have broader answers. It wouldn't be such a narrow way of looking at the situation.
I'm a practical, pragmatic person and my opinions reflect that. I'm not the type of person to do anything dramatic in my life, unless I've thought it through carefully and decided it's the best or only option. I realize that saying Mrsnt should submit to her husband sounds trite, but in reality, you didn't advise her any differently than I did.
I'll go back and finish reading your post and possibly respond more, but I wanted to address this part quickly....
No, I didn't advise her differently. I didn't disagree with your assessment, for the most part. But others on the thread have made it sound like she should just submit, period. End of story. Forget what she feels, just go on through the rest of her life following his beliefs without objecting.
That's the mindset I'm addressing. It's not that simple.
It's really a good approach to state your piece and then move on. Let things "marinate."
Completely agree. Our change was years in the making. Things started bothering me way before my husband changed his views. We talked, let it rest, talked, let it rest. For years.
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All that said, I've only addressed what I think Mrsnt should DO in her situation, from a Christian POV. I think she should speak to her husband about her concerns when he's willing to discuss it without a fight. I think she should then leave changes between her husband and God, give him time to think differently, and in the meantime, keep peace in her home. I'm not sure why that's rubbing Prax or you the wrong way.
I agree with you. You weren't rubbing me the wrong way. I was addressing the entire discussion of the thread.
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I will concede that I'm a cut and dried "don't really care all that much about feelings" kind of woman. I'm more of a "suck it up and do the right thing anyway" kind of woman. That's why people like you are important to this thread.
What exactly was that supposed to mean?
The thing is, I'm very much a 'suck it up and do the right thing' kind of person. It's pretty much my motto. Which is why the transition was so agonizing for me. Because I wanted to be *sure* I *was* doing the right thing. For ME, the right thing was leaving. For others, that's between them and God.
For me, the right thing was being transparent and open. When I would go around my extended family (for instance), part of the family would think - 'Good girl! She's still holding to the Old Paths!' While another part would think - 'Yep, she's condemning me because I'm wearing pants.' They would both come to their conclusions because of the way I looked. I felt like a total fraud and it drove me nuts. (this is just one example, it's really hard to sum all of this journey up in a few sentences) Now it's probably flipped and one part approves of me while the other part doesn't. But now I can breathe freely and allow people to think of me what they want to think, because now at least they know the truth. Since I was a little kid I've hated being or feeling like a fraud or a hypocrite, and now I no longer do.
But my transition was definitely not quick, or hasty, and it shouldn't be - particularly if spouses disagree.
Completely agree. Our change was years in the making. Things started bothering me way before my husband changed his views. We talked, let it rest, talked, let it rest. For years.
I agree with you. You weren't rubbing me the wrong way. I was addressing the entire discussion of the thread.
What exactly was that supposed to mean?
The thing is, I'm very much a 'suck it up and do the right thing' kind of person. It's pretty much my motto. Which is why the transition was so agonizing for me. Because I wanted to be *sure* I *was* doing the right thing. For ME, the right thing was leaving. For others, that's between them and God.
For me, the right thing was being transparent and open. When I would go around my extended family (for instance), part of the family would think - 'Good girl! She's still holding to the Old Paths!' While another part would think - 'Yep, she's condemning me because I'm wearing pants.' They would both come to their conclusions because of the way I looked. I felt like a total fraud and it drove me nuts. (this is just one example, it's really hard to sum all of this journey up in a few sentences) Now it's probably flipped and one part approves of me while the other part doesn't. But now I can breathe freely and allow people to think of me what they want to think, because now at least they know the truth. Since I was a little kid I've hated being or feeling like a fraud or a hypocrite, and now I no longer do.
But my transition was definitely not quick, or hasty, and it shouldn't be - particularly if spouses disagree.
Okay, I guess I'm only rubbing Prax the wrong way. LOL!!!
I appreciate everything you said here.
(And I just meant that your posts come across more compassionately than mine.)
__________________
"God, send me anywhere, only go with me. Lay any burden on me, only sustain me. And sever any tie in my heart except the tie that binds my heart to Yours."
--David Livingstone
"To see no being, not God’s or any, but you also go thither,
To see no possession but you may possess it—enjoying all without labor or purchase—
abstracting the feast, yet not abstracting one particle of it;…."
--Walt Whitman, Leaves of Grass, Song of the Open Road
Last edited by MissBrattified; 12-09-2013 at 11:37 PM.
what do you say to the married woman whose husband does NOT believe the traditional outward holiness 'standards', yet the wife believes she must now stop wearing her wedding band because jewelry/adornment is not holy, thus sinful. Her husband is very distressed because he believes that wedding band is very important. Does your counsel that the wife should submit to his conviction still apply to this situation? Why or why not? (This is a true story, not hypothetical.) I am very curious.
I would counsel that she needs to continue wearing her wedding band, if taking it off would displease, distress, lead to disobedience to her husband, or otherwise lead to disunity in the marriage.
Married couples should not be so willing to strain at gnats.
__________________
For anyone devoted to His fear:
Let God be true and every man a liar. It doesn't matter if I'm right or not. To your own Master you will rise or fall.
But I want you to consider something.
This goes WELL beyond just you and your husband.
Let us say you take a stand, make up your mind, and change your appearance and adornment to match your new-found, personally held convictions.
Your husband is going to have to deal with it, either way. Hopefully you and he don't fight and damage your marriage in the process.
Then what? Then comes a call from the pastor. Now your husband and the pastor are going to have a meeting regarding you and the change that you have brought about.
Your husband is going to have to choose between defending you and your right to do as you please, or siding with the pastor. Consequences and fallout will ensue no matter what.
You will either stay in that assembly, and suffer any number of possible situations that will now come your way, or maybe leave.
If you stay, eventually you or your husband will feel the need to defend why you're doing what you're doing. It will become public. You will hope for a sympathetic ear. If one is found, it will likely be a female, possibly married.
Your statements on the matter will have an effect on any ears willing to listen. They will either blast you or receive you.
It's going to get sticky, no matter what.
If received, now another woman in the church is going to start questioning why she dresses the way she does. If married, she's going to question her husband's stance on standards. Now another couple will find themselves exactly where you and your husband are now.
And who knows? Maybe you will start a revolution, and the entire local assembly will come to believe what you believe.
Any maybe schism and heartache will be all that will ensue.
And maybe nothing so drastic will occur. And maybe something much worse and unexpected will occur.
Are you prepared for the fall-out you and no one else, but YOU, will have caused your entire church?
And now ask yourself:
Still think this is from God?
Now consider this:
You do nothing. You change nothing. You hold a privately held, Scripturally accurate view that outward adornment and clothing are not the litmus test of your salvation, and have no bearing on heaven or hell (Yes, I said it!).
What ensues?
Nothing at all. You have embraced truth as you see it, and still haven't been the source of one single problem in the entire church. You marriage is sound and goes on being the happy, blessed union God intends for it to be, and none are the wiser.
22. Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
While talking about dietary choices, the principle still applies. Have what you believe regarding standards to yourself before God. You don't have to make anything you believe on this matter public. You need not change a thing.
If everyone else in your local assembly is weak in this area, and you're the only one strong enough to stand firm that a woman may dress in something else besides skirts and dresses, or cut her hair, and etc. Fine. Keep it to yourself, but for the sake of your marriage and your church, do not act.
33. Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Holding a different view and keeping it to yourself will keep you blameless. But possibly causing division and distress in the church, so that the pastor, and any number of wives and husbands become affected, is a charge that CAN be put to your account.
Since you know that none of this is sinful and has no bearing on your salvation, there is no reason to push the matter forward. In this, you must put everyone else first.
As much as the meat eater must put the vegan first. As much as the Gentile, in his liberty, must put the Jew still captive in his mind to the law, first. As much as the person who doesn't care if food was offered to idols the person who worries over such things.
All things may be lawful to you. But not all things are expedient.
7. Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the [standards] unto this hour [dress themselves] as a thing [demanded by the church]; and their conscience being weak is defiled.
8. But [clothing] commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we [dress a certain way], are we the better; neither, if we [dress not a certain way], are we the worse.
9. But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.
10. For if any man see thee which hast knowledge [dressing differently than the standard], shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to [dress themselves likewise];
11. And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?
12. But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.
13. Wherefore, if [clothing and outward adornment] make my brother to offend, I will [not dress differently than the standards of the church] while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.
Now, if in time, your husband's views change, and he and you come into agreement, then party on. But do not let your new-found liberty negatively affect the church.
__________________
For anyone devoted to His fear:
1.) The devil loves to get people fixated on one issue so that other more important issues are ignored or put aside, so that one becomes OBSESSED, and can't even love on and worship God properly. You are called to peace, not obsession.
2.) Pray and fast. Cast yourself upon the rock and be broken. Diligently search your heart and invite God to try your reins. Ask God to renew the fear of the Lord in your life.
3.) Show your husband this post, even if he gets upset. A secret is just a precursor to worse problems down the line.
4.) If you have the time and are willing to read, please take the time and look at the following:
The whole "Obey your husbands" fits perfectly into the control freak/manipulator personality.
Maybe the question should not be, should she obey but rather, should he order her to do something against her conscious?
Ive already sided with the "dont get advice from AFF" group...
that being said here is my take on matters of marriage as it relates to this subject.
When you get married, the first thing everyone needs to know is that humans change over time. None of us are the same people we were just a few short years earlier. Life, experience, hurt and joy all have an impact.
A married couple SHOULD AT ALL TIMES be considering their marriage as they grow and change, insuring that they change TOGETHER. If at any point the two begin to grow in different directions, there needs to be serious open, honest communication.
marriages go sideways because married people are not vigilent about growing together.
When two people are moving at different speeds in that process, the one moving fastest is in my opinion responsible to NOT outrun the other.
This is submission to the marriage. NOT a woman submitted to the man.
I am against control and manipulation regardless of who is doing it. However one does not get to "see the light" in a marriage that is long standing and has been Christ centered for its entire existance.
If one finds some light, then they need to share that light in the love of God and not out run the one they are married to. period.
Anyone who has been married for any serious amount of time (successfully) knows that while personal opinions are important, they are not more important than the relationship they established before God when they got married.
__________________ If I do something stupid blame the Lortab!
Anyone who has been married for any serious amount of time (successfully) knows that while personal opinions are important, they are not more important than the relationship they established before God when they got married.
I was addressing the entire discussion of the thread.
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