Question About Submission

[*AQuietPlace*]

Originally Posted by Sasha

It took me longer than that. In fact, the change was in my heart long before it showed on the outside. Of course, since that happened, I'm no longer saved anyway.

The biggest thing for me to accept was attending a church that believed as I did. Sound strange? Understand that I was used to the UPC way of life, and even though I'd changed, it was difficult to realize there were others like me. It took a while for me to stop focusing on the women wearing pants on the platform and put my eyes on Jesus. All my life I'd been taught to judge people by how they looked, and it's hard to change that kind of thinking very quick. I still struggle, I admit.

I do watch in awe now at people who love God in spite of what they are wearing. God doesn't care, why should I?

We've been programmed a certain way for a LONG time. Our brains don't rewire themselves overnight. Our brains have been trained to respond to certain visual triggers.

It's been very humbling to me to realize how much I have judged people merely by their appearance.

[navygoat1998]

Originally Posted by Sasha

It took me longer than that. In fact, the change was in my heart long before it showed on the outside. Of course, since that happened, I'm no longer saved anyway.

The biggest thing for me to accept was attending a church that believed as I did. Sound strange? Understand that I was used to the UPC way of life, and even though I'd changed, it was difficult to realize there were others like me. It took a while for me to stop focusing on the women wearing pants on the platform and put my eyes on Jesus. All my life I'd been taught to judge people by how they looked, and it's hard to change that kind of thinking very quick. I still struggle, I admit.

I do watch in awe now at people who love God in spite of what they are wearing. God doesn't care, why should I?

Thank you for sharing!

The AG church we visited the morning that we told the pastor we were leaving had a Holy Ghost service and the place was on fire. We cried like babies but yet we still judged the lack of suits on the men and the short hair and pants on the women, but yet that church was on fire with the Holy Ghost too

Funny even in the church we are part of today, some of the older sisters wear the standards. In the youth service on Wednesday nights the female Teen- Challenge attend the service and there could be 3 or 4 that wear the standards.

[votivesoul]

My problem isn't that he wants me to do those things. It's that he feels he has the right to tell me what to do. I don't think that's what true submission means, and I don't think that's fulfilling God's direction for him to love me.

God gives commands and we submit, because "Thus saith the Lord..."

Christ commands us, and we say "Yes, Lord" and submit.

A husband commands us, and we say "Not so, you have no right to order me to submit".

Is your husband your head or not?

If you knew Christ, as your husband's head, had ordered him to submit in some area, and your husband did not because that's not what "true submission means", do you believe your husband would be in disobedience to his Lord and Master?

I defend your right to believe as you see fit, but for you to tell me how I must believe and act is WRONG. We are all accountable to God as individuals

This isn't so. You are personally accountable to the local assembly of believers, as well as to God. The Apostles and Prophets set in order, corrected, and rebuked as necessary, so that the churches they oversaw came to believe what they were taught and told to believe.

Your personal feelings on any one matter, and how those feelings direct your actions, WILL ABSOLUTELY affect, for better or for worse, the local assembly of which you and your husband are a part.

If your husband or you are in ministry, for example, and your choices negatively affect his or her position and service to God and man, so that he or you are hindered (justly or not), then it's not just you as an individual being accountable to God only, it's also your husband and the entire local assembly.

Since you've already admitted that nothing he requires of you is sinful, then how in the world can you not submit? By not being sinful, they automatically become un-sinful, which means just and acceptable before God.

You may have no personal conviction on the matter, and may feel no need to do anything your husband is requiring of you in this area. Fine. These things, in and of themselves, are not salvational (heaven or hell).

But you've stated multiple times that you love and respect your husband. I believe you.

Remember what love does. It prefers the other person above itself, and does not seek it's own way. Your love will find a way and lead you to submit.

If may not be through feel good affection. But it will be through the principle of agape God decrees in His word.

It's about my identity and being able to be true to what I believe. I want to obey the heart of God's message on true holiness, true modesty, true womanliness. Not just the outward show of it all...

You have no identity apart from your husband. You are one flesh. The only identity in a Christian marriage is "us". The heart of God's message includes being in subjection to your husband.

What am I supposed to tell people who ask me why I dress the way I do? What am I telling people about myself when they see the way I look?

You say, "I dress and appear this way to please my husband and be in subjection to his desire for me as his bride".

I want to do what is RIGHT, not just what I WANT. I want to know the TRUTH.

Admirable. Here is truth:

Ephesians 5:33,

33. Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

Reverence here is phobeo. It means to be afraid of, in this sense:

"to reverence, venerate, to treat with deference or reverential obedience"

There is no qualifications upon this verse. It does not read that a wife only HAS to do this if the husband is loving his wife properly.

In 1 Peter 3:1 and 5, "in subjection" is a reflexive verb. It means the object of the verb, the wife, has to subjugate herself to her husband. It is a choice of the will.

If at any time, or in the future, you choose not to do this, you are just as guilty as you say your husband is, of not complying with the Scriptures. Don't force his hand.

[Amanah]

I think that to attend an Apostolic church without adopting the culture of the church will cause cracks and strains in the harmony of ones relationship with family, friends, the ministry, and eventually with God.

For the most part, this will result in having to change your theology so that you can attend church else where, or not attend at all.

Such a change in personal beliefs can cause a strain on a marriage to the extent of there being serious harm to a marriage, unless both partners make the change together.

If you do make such a change, will you be comfortable with adopting a theology that doesn't include Baptism in Jesus Name, and being filled with the Holy Ghost.

This is why I feel compelled to encourage you to think and pray carefully about what you are doing. Sometimes its better to not offend then to take the liberty to do what you wish. I think there is a slippery slope here.

1 Corinthians 8:13 Therefore, if what I eat causes my brother or sister to fall into sin, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause them to fall.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by Amanah

I think that to attend an Apostolic church without adopting the culture of the church will cause cracks and strains in the harmony of ones relationship with family, friends, the ministry, and eventually with God.

For the most part, this will result in having to change your theology so that you can attend church else where, or not attend at all.

Such a change in personal beliefs can cause a strain on a marriage to the extent of there being serious harm to a marriage, unless both partners make the change together.

If you do make such a change, will you be comfortable with adopting a theology that doesn't include Baptism in Jesus Name, and being filled with the Holy Ghost.

This is why I feel compelled to encourage you to think and pray carefully about what you are doing. Sometimes its better to not offend then to take the liberty to do what you wish. I think there is a slippery slope here.

1 Corinthians 8:13 Therefore, if what I eat causes my brother or sister to fall into sin, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause them to fall.

Amen. Thank you for the sagacious input.

[MarieA27]

Originally Posted by Sasha

Marie, perhaps you and I aren't seeing the picture the same.

Does it matter if I just brush my hair or is it ok that I put a barrette in it? What about putting it in a bun? Can I add a feather? Does any of this make a difference as to my intentions once I leave my home?

Can I put in the set of earrings my husband got me for my birthday, or should I feel like a floozy because I want to look nice and feel good?

I could just use the smell test when I wake up in the morning and, if my clothing doesn't show any dirt I can just keep wearing them over and over, but you know, I love the scent of vanilla musk. Should I feel bad for wanting to smell good?

Seriously, do I need a reason to have 'extras' on?

Marie, do you use a mirror?

Oh nevermind...

[MarieA27]

Originally Posted by Sasha

Marie, there was a time when listening to the radio, wearing red, and ladies wearing open toed shoes was considered 'wrong'. So now I have to ask, why do you NOW do those things?

Nevermind...

[Sasha]

Marie, sorry but I wasn't understanding the point you were attempting to make in asking why people want to look nice in public, that's all. To me, it was as silly as asking why someone locks their doors at night while praying for God to protect them from harm or taking medicine after getting prayed for.

[Mrsnt]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

I understand, I think, where you're coming from. You're not chafing at the particular clothesline standards so much as the fact that they are taught as heaven/hell issues, when they shouldn't be.

I believe that if the OP would leave off their legalistic mindset with the teachings that certain dress codes are salvational, and leave it up to husbands/wives to determine the particular standards for their families, instead of being mandated by a pastor/church/organization, then revival could truly break forth in their ranks like never before.

It is not to say that wearing a dress/long hair/no makeup... etc. etc. are wrong... it is the teaching that it is a salvational thing that makes it so wrong.

If authority were recognized as God-Christ-husband-wife-children, as it is biblically taught, a lot of problems in the ranks of OP would be solved.

Yes, exactly. How can I, in good conscience and with integrity, live in a way that supports what I believe to be wrong??

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Mrsnt

Yes, exactly. How can I, in good conscience and with integrity, live in a way that supports what I believe to be wrong??

It's not necessarily wrong to not cut hair, not wear makeup, Jewelry etc etc

However you believe it's wrong to make that a biblical heaven or hell issue. But again that does not mean it's wrong to just have uncut hair, no jewelry etc etc