Biblical Argument or Private Interpretation?

[Servetus]

So I ran into an OP pastor friend the other day and started talking theology, before I was interrupted by a phone call and had to part ways. Of course I have left the OP movement and so we were debating back and forth about the Holy Ghost and salvation, et al. He was making some unique statements about salvation, which to me seemed to be way out in left field, without any solid hermeneutical grounds.

Two statements he made were 1)God always seals an acceptable sacrifice with fire, and He seals us with fire, therefore we are to offer ourselves as a living sacrifices holy and acceptable to God, and if He finds our sacrifice acceptable then He will seal us with fire (the HG baptism). His other argument was a scoff at my view that salvation has always been by faith, thus we are saved in the same manner as Abraham (to which he said if that's true then Jesus didn't need to die on the cross). So here is a brief response to him, and a brief reply. Obviously we are on different sides of the see-saw.....Give me your opinions and thoughts.

[Servetus]

Objection: We are not saved in the same way as Abraham (justification by faith), because if that were true then the sacrifice of Christ was unnecessary.
Answer: The Bible makes it plain that salvation has always been by faith (Romans 3:22) and gives Abraham as the chief example of salvation by grace through faith (Romans 4:2-3), and we are told specifically that Abraham’s faith was counted to him as righteousness BEFORE he was circumcised (Romans 4:10) and that these things are written for OUR (the Church) benefit (Romans 4:22-25). So then Paul’s point seems to be that salvation has always been by faith, never by keeping the Law, sacrifices, feasts, obedience, or good works. (Though certainly those things are seen as an expression of legitimate faith both in the case of Abraham, and in the case of the believer as is spoken of in James 2:14-26).
So then if Abraham could be saved by faith under the Old Covenant, and believers under the New covenant are saved the same way, why was it necessary for Jesus Christ to die? For many reasons:

1)neither Abraham nor any other man ever kept God’s law perfectly. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23).

2)Since God is Holy, Righteous and Just- He could not justify Abraham unless the penalty was paid for His sin. That penalty could never be paid by good works, or obedience, it must be paid by a sacrifice. However this sacrifice must be sinless. While it is true that in the Old Testament animals were sacrificed, the Bible makes it plain that the blood of bulls and goats could never take away man’s sin. Animal sacrifice simply served to “roll forward” the penalty of sin that was ultimately paid in Christ. In this way animal sacrifice served as a type, but there is no teaching which says a man who observed animal sacrifice could have a right relationship with God apart from faith. All the animal sacrifices, Feasts, and Sabbath observance in the world could not save a single Jew apart from faith in God. God in fact spoke of how much he hated the ritualistic worship of Israel (even though He instituted it) because it was not done in faith-see Isaiah 1:10-15, Jeremiah 7:1-10, etc).

3)The death of Jesus Christ was necessary because He perfectly kept (fulfilled) the law of God, and therefore He could die in our place. Therefore the demands of God’s justice have been fulfilled because sin has been judged and punished in Christ

4)Adam’s sin was imputed to all men (Genesis 3;17-19 w/Romans 5:12), all of our sin was imputed to Christ (Isaiah 53:6), and because of Christ’s death God will impute His righteousness to anyone who places their faith in Christ(Romans 4:22-24 & 5:16-19)

These things being so, our salvation is based completely upon the work of Jesus Christ, not on anything that we do. All that is required of us is to place our faith in the person and work of Jesus Christ. (This includes repentance, because in order to understand the gospel, one must understand that Jesus died for THEIR sins, which implies that the sinner must therefore turn from their sins since the wages of sin is death. There is nothing in the Bible which teaches that a believer can live in open rebellion, sin, and constant disobedience toward God. In those cases the person is warned to examine their selves to see whether or not they are truly in the faith, and a solid teaching of the letter of 1 John would debunk the majority of false conversions so common in American Christianity).


If this reasoning is correct (items 1 thru 4), the objection may be “But Christ was not even crucified until nearly 2000 years after Abraham lived-so how could God have justified Abraham based on the blood of Christ?” That is because God is eternal, time means nothing to Him, which is why we see the many scriptures which teach that the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world. From the very beginning God dealt with men through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Old Testament saints were saved through their faith in God looking forward to the coming of the promised Messiah, and New Testament believers are saved by their faith in God looking back on the work accomplished by the Messiah. The point of reference has changed as the crucifixion is the central event in all of human history, but this does not necessitate two different ways of salvation. There is a change in the Law, as Hebrews makes clear-we no longer sacrifice animals because Jesus is the final sacrifice. We no longer must be physically circumcised, for now circumcised in our hearts (through water baptism-Colossians 2:11), and we all have access to the Holy of Holies (the presence of God) through Jesus Christ, thus we can come before the Throne of God boldly (Hebrews 4:16) by praying in the Holy Ghost (Jude 1:25). All of these things are available to us through and because of Christ. In this sense we have a fuller revelation and understanding of God’s work and character than did those of the old Covenant, whose faith was expressed through the various types contained within the Old Covenant. Having lived on this side of Calvary we now know about the things that the prophets themselves could only speculate about (1 Peter 1:10-11).

Objection: We are to present our bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God. If God accepts that sacrifice, then He seals it with fire (the baptism of the Holy Ghost).
Answer: This is salvation by works. First, the comment is lifted out of its original context (Romans 12:1) which was written to people who were already believers. This was not intended for potential converts, but was written to those who had already been converted. Furthermore, especially as chapters 3:21-5:21 point out there is nothing we can do on our own to make ourselves holy or acceptable to God in the context of salvation. He “accepts” us on the merits of Jesus Christ, not our own merits. If indeed we must make ourselves acceptable to God BEFORE He will save us, how is that NOT salvation by works? How is that not in direct contradiction to so much of what is written in earlier parts of Romans, and especially 3:20-28, 4:2-5, and 11:6.
In addition to the Bible does not teach that we are “sealed” by the fire of the Holy Spirit when we make ourselves acceptable to God, but we are told in fact that after we trusted/believed in Christ we were sealed with the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:12-14).
This soteriology seems to be based more on an allegorical reading of the Old Testament types, than the plain language of the New Testament.

[Servetus]

The Reply:

I read. I yawned.

50 to 75 % of what you sent is yours or someone elses opinion. Not
backed by scripture and necessarily, many scripture left out.
You obviously discount and exclude many types from scripture
to shore up your believe.
You have a distorted view of "works" as defined in scripture, by scripture.
... men see your good works/ rev, judge by your works. . .
to believe is a work, to repent is a work, to be baptized is a work,
assemble yourselves together, a work. read bible, pray, lift up holy hands,
etc etc, works. "Bring forth fruit meet for repentance, works, etc etc.
Gen 11, 'let us" "let us", you are building you a tower of Babel made
of made made "bricks", not 'The Stone".

The doctrine you are trying your best is nothing knew. It has
been around many hears deceiving the populous. It is truly nothing more than
"mental affirmation" and easy believism or cheapen, misunderstood grace.
Here is some info on the Biblical Holy Ghost that the apostle taught and
the people received: AND BY THE WAY, CORNELIUS HOUSE AND THE SAMARITANS

Had SAME EXPIERINCE TO RECEIVE THIS HOLY GHOST>

1 came with audible noise
2 came with outward emotion and actions
3 came with miraculous other tongues
4 covenant confirmed by God on convert (tongues of fire)

Here is a few biblical descriptions to what happens to a person FILLED with Holy Ghost and Fire:
1 they are sealed
2 Acts 1 You receive POWER after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you
3 old man passed away, all things become knew
4 joy unspeakable full of glory
5 If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

If the above described (short description) Holy Ghost is not what your are teaching, and the people are recieving,
its not the Holy Spirit of the bible. Can your converts proclaim the above???
Some one filled with the Holy Ghost will receive and exibit an immediate CHANGE,like you guys did.

In closing:
The letter killeth, but the SPIRIT gives life.
It seems, which happens, your approaching this from a legalistic and
humanistic angle. Trying to define or negate the Spirit by head knowledge
and scripture picking.
I beginning to believe by the scriptures you continue to discount, it does not matter
what I bring to you, your minds set in cement, "having mens persons in admiration because of advantage."
"Many called, Few Chosen. Few There be that find it.

I believe because you once knew and taught the truth, but are turning from it, it may be for reasons other than
biblical.
EAT YE THE WHOLE BOOK!!!!!!

[renee819]

The reply is true.

People that don't want to give their lives to Jesus completely, try to use, “You're not saved by works,” argument. Which in the Word is usually talking about, The Law. And in actuality, no you are not saved by works. As we see Cornelius was not. But he was saved by “obedience” He was saved by receiving the Holy Ghost and being baptized in Jesus name. In fact he was commanded to be baptized in Jesus name.

When I say, we are not saved by works, I'm talking about---feeding the poor, visiting the sick, giving alms, no one is saved by doing those things apart from the Plan of Salvation.

But on the other hand, if OBEDIENCE, is works, then we are saved by works of obedience.

Saved by faith, YES. Every person in the world that was ever saved, was saved by faith.

But where would Noah have ended if he had refused to build the Ark?
Abraham, if he had refused to sacrifice his son?
Moses, if he had refused to lead the Children of Israel out of Egypt?

No one is saved by faith alone. Faith requires obedience. And where will those end up refusing to be obedient to God's Plan of Salvation, because they have been taught a false doctrine that to do so is works. And somehow “works” has become more terrible than sin, or disobedience.

Yet we are told over and over that we will be judged by our works.

[Nitehawk013]

Originally Posted by renee819

The reply is true.

People that don't want to give their lives to Jesus completely, try to use, “You're not saved by works,” argument. Which in the Word is usually talking about, The Law. And in actuality, no you are not saved by works. As we see Cornelius was not. But he was saved by “obedience” He was saved by receiving the Holy Ghost and being baptized in Jesus name. In fact he was commanded to be baptized in Jesus name.

When I say, we are not saved by works, I'm talking about---feeding the poor, visiting the sick, giving alms, no one is saved by doing those things apart from the Plan of Salvation.

But on the other hand, if OBEDIENCE, is works, then we are saved by works of obedience.

Saved by faith, YES. Every person in the world that was ever saved, was saved by faith.

But where would Noah have ended if he had refused to build the Ark?
Abraham, if he had refused to sacrifice his son?
Moses, if he had refused to lead the Children of Israel out of Egypt?

No one is saved by faith alone. Faith requires obedience. And where will those end up refusing to be obedient to God's Plan of Salvation, because they have been taught a false doctrine that to do so is works. And somehow “works” has become more terrible than sin, or disobedience.

Yet we are told over and over that we will be judged by our works.

^^ This. Perfect response across the board. Faith alone wasn't good enough for any figure in scripture. They ALL had to ACT on faith with OBEDIANCE and yes...WORKS in order to be "saved".

[Servetus]

Originally Posted by renee819

The reply is true.

People that don't want to give their lives to Jesus completely, try to use, “You're not saved by works,” argument. Which in the Word is usually talking about, The Law. And in actuality, no you are not saved by works. As we see Cornelius was not. But he was saved by “obedience” He was saved by receiving the Holy Ghost and being baptized in Jesus name. In fact he was commanded to be baptized in Jesus name.

When I say, we are not saved by works, I'm talking about---feeding the poor, visiting the sick, giving alms, no one is saved by doing those things apart from the Plan of Salvation.

But on the other hand, if OBEDIENCE, is works, then we are saved by works of obedience.

Saved by faith, YES. Every person in the world that was ever saved, was saved by faith.

But where would Noah have ended if he had refused to build the Ark?
Abraham, if he had refused to sacrifice his son?
Moses, if he had refused to lead the Children of Israel out of Egypt?

No one is saved by faith alone. Faith requires obedience. And where will those end up refusing to be obedient to God's Plan of Salvation, because they have been taught a false doctrine that to do so is works. And somehow “works” has become more terrible than sin, or disobedience.

Yet we are told over and over that we will be judged by our works.

Renee if you reread post#2 it was was said that salvation by faith is always expressed through works, but these works are not what saves. It is the faith that saves. Saving faith is obedient faith. But what is the point of salvation/regeneration? Was Noah saved BECAUSE he built the ark or did Noah build the ark because he was a man who already had a right relationship with God because of his faith? Same with Abraham and Moses and all of us. This is the point of James 2, living (saving) faith is never alone.

Now you made the comment that people who don't want to give their lives completely to Jesus use the argument "were not saved by works", it really doesn't matter who makes the argument the question is "is it biblical?" Of course there are those carnal unregenerate people who use that argument to excuse their lack of fruit, that's why I mentioned James 2 and the tests of saving faith in 1 John. But would you say everyone who takes that stance doesn't want to give their lives to Jesus? Paul Washer doesn't want to give his life to Jesus? John MacArthur? Leonard Ravenhill ? John Wesley? Martin Luther? Jonathan Edwards? None of them wanted to give their lives to Jesus? In order to debate something you don't agree with you used an ad hominem attack.

Now the original point I was refuting was the sinner must first make themselves a holy and acceptable sacrifice to God BEFORE He will save them (by giving them the Holy Ghost). Do you believe that to be true? If you do then explain how that is not working for salvation and in exactly what sense the Holy Ghost is a gift if there are certain things we have to do to make ourselves acceptable to God (even holy) in order to "get it". And when you're done explaining that, tell me how an unregenerate sinner can ever make themselves holy and acceptable without the Spirit.

[Aquila]

One must simply believe in Christ, confess sin, and ask for the Holy Spirit in faith... and they will receive it.

[jfrog]

I've seen men of other faiths and men without faith in anything do every kind of good Christian work imaginable. If good works are the evidence of a true christian believer then I say some Buddhists and some Muslims and some atheists are better Christians than some of you all.

So works alone are no better evidence of someone's salvation than someone simply sayin I believe in Jesus. In fact the statement I believe in Jesus without anything else is infinitely better evidence of someone's salvation than any amount of good works only.

So is faith in Christ possible without good works? Yes! Someone can fully believe in Christ without having any time left to go out and do good works. That's not typical because most people's lives don't end so suddenly after belief that they don't have time to produce some good works but it can happen.

[renee819]

Servetus wrote,

It is the faith that saves. Saving faith is obedient faith. But what is the point of salvation/regeneration? Was Noah saved BECAUSE he built the ark or did Noah build the ark because he was a man who already had a right relationship with God because of his faith? Same with Abraham and Moses and all of us. This is the point of James 2, living (saving) faith is never alone

.

When a person uses the word, “saves” or “saved” it is important to know what they are talking about. I usually use “born again” as the salvation/regeneration experience. It takes faith in God to be born again. And only since the cross can people be born again. Noah and Abraham, could not be born again. And after being born again, we are constantly growing in grace, as we thru faith, preform acts of love.

Servetus wrote,

Now you made the comment that people who don't want to give their lives completely to Jesus use the argument "were not saved by works", it really doesn't matter who makes the argument the question is "is it biblical?" Of course there are those carnal unregenerate people who use that argument to excuse their lack of fruit, that's why I mentioned James 2 and the tests of saving faith in 1 John. But would you say everyone who takes that stance doesn't want to give their lives to Jesus?

No of course not. But usually people that say that, are not truly born again, (at least the ones that I have talked to) believe that faith saves them and that to obey Acts 2:38 is 'works.” and believing that Jesus did it all, there is nothing for them to do.

Servetus wrote,

Now the original point I was refuting was the sinner must first make themselves a holy and acceptable sacrifice to God BEFORE He will save them (by giving them the Holy Ghost). Do you believe that to be true? If you do then explain how that is not working for salvation and in exactly what sense the Holy Ghost is a gift if there are certain things we have to do to make ourselves acceptable to God (even holy) in order to "get it". And when you're done explaining that, tell me how an unregenerate sinner can ever make themselves holy and acceptable without the Spirit

The sinner can not make themselves holy before they receive the Holy Ghost. No one can live a holy and righteous life, without the Holy Ghost, because they do not yet, have the “divine nature” inside of them.
There are millions of people that have repented, and want to live for God. And that makes them BELIEVERS. But these BELIEVERS, need to be baptized in Jesus name and receive the Holy Ghost, as BELIEVERS in Acts 8 and 19 did.

Many men do works of righteousness, good works, to prove to themselves and others, that they are good. But if you could see their lives, then you could know that they are not righteous.
Not that anyone is 'righteous' before God, but after being born again, we must 'grow in grace.' however, millions are being taught wrong.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by renee819

Servetus wrote,
.

When a person uses the word, “saves” or “saved” it is important to know what they are talking about. I usually use “born again” as the salvation/regeneration experience. It takes faith in God to be born again. And only since the cross can people be born again. Noah and Abraham, could not be born again. And after being born again, we are constantly growing in grace, as we thru faith, preform acts of love.

Servetus wrote,

No of course not. But usually people that say that, are not truly born again, (at least the ones that I have talked to) believe that faith saves them and that to obey Acts 2:38 is 'works.” and believing that Jesus did it all, there is nothing for them to do.

Servetus wrote,

The sinner can not make themselves holy before they receive the Holy Ghost. No one can live a holy and righteous life, without the Holy Ghost, because they do not yet, have the “divine nature” inside of them.
There are millions of people that have repented, and want to live for God. And that makes them BELIEVERS. But these BELIEVERS, need to be baptized in Jesus name and receive the Holy Ghost, as BELIEVERS in Acts 8 and 19 did.

Many men do works of righteousness, good works, to prove to themselves and others, that they are good. But if you could see their lives, then you could know that they are not righteous.
Not that anyone is 'righteous' before God, but after being born again, we must 'grow in grace.' however, millions are being taught wrong.

So you believe that someone can be a believer but they are not saved? Can you give a scripture to support that view? Does not the Bible equate true belief with salvation numerous times in the NT?

Second to that what do you mean by your last paragraph? Are you saying that someone's life can appear righteous, but if they haven't spoken in tongues then really their righteousness is just a show for other men? I've heard that viewpoint from oneness viewpoint, of course the irony is few groups are as works based as oneness pentecostals who believe their righteousness consists in what they wear and what they don't do, rarely actually emphasizing the Spirit of holiness which affects attitudes, thoughts, treatment of others......they tend to have a neo pharaseeical view which equates holiness with dress code and adornment. From that standpoint who is trying to gain the approval of men?