Actually, to take it one step back, when is a person 'unsaved' originally? I've asked several times about when a person is actually redeemed, is it at birth, after they're born, at 12 years old (the alleged age of accountability)....when? The question isn't simply some theological exercise but is one of the most important truths facing humanity today.
So, the first question shouldn't be if a person can, or could, lose their salvation, the first question should be when is a person 'saved' to begin with.
When they believe that Christ is the Son of God, imo anyway.
I don't think you can know if you are saved, and will remain saved till the end. You can only believe you are saved, and will remain saved. You can believe you understand the instructions (and have chosen the correct scriptures to follow), and you can hope you followed them correctly. But some will have guessed wrong, Jesus predicted. He'll tell them "Depart from me".
Now, of course, there are some, such as Elder Epley, who "know" they are saved. Even though he has said he doesn't know what will happen to unbelievers when they die, he somehow does know what will happen to him.
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
When they believe that Christ is the Son of God, imo anyway.
That doesn't address the issue of the newborn, the child, or the aborted for that matter. When does a person become 'unsaved' in order for the to need to be saved? And I'm using the term 'saved' here in the sense of missing hell, being with God, not dying eternally....that kind of thing.
If an infant, or a child, is saved, how is that infant or child saved? They have no concept of Christ being the Son of God.
I don't think you can know if you are saved, and will remain saved till the end. You can only believe you are saved, and will remain saved. You can believe you understand the instructions (and have chosen the correct scriptures to follow), and you can hope you followed them correctly. But some will have guessed wrong, Jesus predicted. He'll tell them "Depart from me".
Now, of course, there are some, such as Elder Epley, who "know" they are saved. Even though he has said he doesn't know what will happen to unbelievers when they die, he somehow does know what will happen to him.
I doubt Elder Epley will address the issue of when a person is 'unsaved' after they're born. At what point in their life. At birth? When they're 7 years old? 18 years old?
So many good comments, I don't even know where to start.
Quote:
Originally Posted by votivesoul
I don't think it's a light switch that God turns off and on, depending on what we do or don't do, day to day, day in and day out.
But willful sin, which, once committed, if confronted by the Spirit or the Body, is ignored or not repented of, then someone has certainly endangered themselves. The longer one goes without returning and re-uniting with Christ, the less likely they ever will.
In general, this tends to be my view on the matter, as well. As Michael and Disciple4life posted, there are certainly passages that tell us there is the ability to "fall away." Of that, I have no doubt. Hebrews 10 is a wonderful chapter that illustrates the futility of the law - written on stone tablets - and the importance of the law now being written on our hearts. We are no longer bound by a list of minutia to "keep us from sinning," instead the sacrifice that Christ made for us must be honored by our desire to live a life free from sin:
"26 Dear friends, if we deliberately continue sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice that will cover these sins. 27 There is only the terrible expectation of God’s judgment and the raging fire that will consume his enemies. 28 For anyone who refused to obey the law of Moses was put to death without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Just think how much worse the punishment will be for those who have trampled on the Son of God, and have treated the blood of the covenant, which made us holy, as if it were common and unholy, and have insulted and disdained the Holy Spirit who brings God’s mercy to us."
But Seekerman brings up a very interesting angle on this - one I'd been thinking of myself when thinking about this topic again this morning:
Quote:
Originally Posted by seekerman
Actually, to take it one step back, when is a person 'unsaved' originally? I've asked several times about when a person is actually redeemed, is it at birth, after they're born, at 12 years old (the alleged age of accountability)....when? The question isn't simply some theological exercise but is one of the most important truths facing humanity today.
So, the first question shouldn't be if a person can, or could, lose their salvation, the first question should be when is a person 'saved' to begin with.
It can't be as "black and white" as we try to make it.
Here's an interesting personal anecdote. I received the Holy Ghost at the age of 6. At the age of 7, I decided to be baptized, and my parents allowed me. A friend about my age was baptized as well, the same day. The very afternoon after our baptism, we got into an argument and socked each other a couple times. Was that behavior sinful - as in the sin that separates me from God? Or was it simply childish? At what point do my fleshly impulses "separate me" from God...is it when I stop trying to improve? Is it when I stop trying to seek his grace?
And then...for all who point to the scriptures that say "willful sin". What constitutes "willful sin"? When I read the New Testament, I see sin being described as behavior that fulfills the desires of the flesh in opposition to the fruit the Spirit wants to bear in your life (which brings me to Michael's post being an excellent study on the point of the real life parable of the fig tree). For example, Galations 5: "19 When you follow the desires of your sinful nature, the results are very clear: sexual immorality, impurity, lustful pleasures, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hostility, quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissension, division, 21 envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and other sins like these."
I don't see on here that what a woman choosing to put on her legs being a demonstration of sin. I don't see if a man chooses to watch or participate in sports activity being a demonstration of sin. While motivation CAN be sin, motivation is a heart issue. If what you're wearing leads to sexual immorality, there's a problem. If what you're doing leads to idolatry, there's a problem.
But when we try to create a checklist of how "sold out" we can be for Jesus, that's when the one-upmanship becomes contrary to the purpose of no longer being under the law (where the things you "do" or "don't do" have no connection to the state of your heart) instead of being under grace (where your primary goal is to make sure your heart - your desires - are aligned with the Spirit).
If someone is bearing fruit - love, joy, peace, patience, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, self-control - why do we feel the need to question their salvation, motives, maturity, because they don't refrain from some of the things that we do?
I think much of our fear over "losing our salvation" comes from the judging eyes of those around us, rather than a focus on heart-issues that we're called to in the Word.
Last edited by Real Realism; 10-16-2013 at 01:38 PM.
I don't think you can know if you are saved, and will remain saved till the end. You can only believe you are saved, and will remain saved. You can believe you understand the instructions (and have chosen the correct scriptures to follow), and you can hope you followed them correctly. But some will have guessed wrong, Jesus predicted. He'll tell them "Depart from me".
Jesus did not say 'some will have guessed wrong'. He said they were 'workers of iniquity', which is lawlessness, ie antinomians.
There is no 'guessing' in that context, they had the forms of religion and did 'many wonderful works in' His name, but they were 'workers of iniquity', ie they had obviously come to the conclusion that God's LAW was no longer valid for them and they could live according to the dictates of their own heart.
Jesus says they will be rejected.
This theme is repeated throughout the New Testament.
Now as to certainty, there are differing degrees of certainty. One cannot know as a TOTAL CERTAINTY anything until it happens, by the very nature of the thing. One cannot know a future event as a true unalterable certainty, because it is yet future, and therefore in its 'essence' is only a probability.
One can have a degree of 'certainty' however, in the sense one can be assured and have faith, hope, expectation that an event will happen. A person who believes the gospel and commits themself to the Lord's care can have expectation He will keep His Word and they will not be ashamed on 'That Day'. One must, however, maintain this expectation and not lose one's confidence.
A lot of people desperately need teaching on the basis for that confidence. It is not based on the fact one was baptised, or even on the fact one has believed.
It is based on the fact that Christ is truly risen from the dead, that God cannot lie, that God intends good for us not evil, that God has sworn by himself (as it were) to redeem us.
One's baptism, faith, spiritual experiences, current walk with God, etc are merely testifying to one's ACCEPTANCE and TRUST IN GOD'S PROMISE. Our confidence is in Him, not ourselves. We submit to His Word because we are confident in Him, not to create confidence in Him.
Our obedience to God is a sign we have taken him seriously.
I doubt Elder Epley will address the issue of when a person is 'unsaved' after they're born. At what point in their life. At birth? When they're 7 years old? 18 years old?
When does a person become accountable for their sins?
That seems to be the question you are asking.
I would suggest that when a person knows to do right, and does it not, they are accountable for what they know, and their actions.
Keep in mind, too, that salvation as presented in the bible does not present 'individual, personal salvation' as the be all, end all of 'salvation'. Salvation, redemption, is a covenant thing.
God redeemed a PEOPLE, a covenant nation. Salvation is only possible by membership in that covenant nation. Being outside that covenant nation one is automatically 'lost' to begin with.
But notice:
Isa 56:6
¶
Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;
Isa 56:7
Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.
Isa 56:8
The Lord GOD which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.
and again:
Eph 2:12
That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Eph 2:13
But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Eph 2:14
¶
For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Eph 2:15
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Eph 2:16
And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
Eph 2:17
And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
Eph 2:18
For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
Eph 2:19
¶
Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
The covenantal, national aspect of redemption has been SERIOUSLY overlooked by most professing Christians over the last 100 years or so.
... that's when the one-upmanship becomes contrary to the purpose of no longer being under the law (where the things you "do" or "don't do" have no connection to the state of your heart) ...
That is contrary to the teaching of Christ and his apostles.
1Jo 3:4
¶
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
1Jo 3:5
And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
1Jo 3:6
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jo 3:7
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jo 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jo 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jo 3:10
¶
In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
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