Tragedy of War RECOVERED! LISTEN!

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Baron1710

Water/Spirit preachers ignore the cross, and the "easy believeism" demonstrated there by Jesus. You must Repent, You must be baptized, You must speak in tongues. Salvation is all about what YOU do, and if You haven't done these things there is no room in the kingdom for you. They do not rely on the finished work of the cross, they focus on their steps. One...two...three...now you are saved...well if you continue to dress right...pay your tithes...attend church 4 times a week...obey every nonsense rule the pastor makes up and calls it Biblical...yep it is all about the cross.

Again, nonsense. I believe in 'water/spirit', apparently you do not believe in the water or the spirit. I have preached (I do not claim to be a preacher, but I did preach a campmeeting, and also in a UPC once as a guest preacher. I have also taught bible studies.) I FIRMLY believe that unless one is born again of water and spirit one cannot enter the kingdom of God (one won't even see it, let alone enter it...).

And EVERY time I preached or taught it was THE CROSS, the BLOOD, the RESURRECTION.

The 'Christ event' (death and resurrection) is not just a theological article of faith, it is a spiritual REALITY that must be entered into if one is to have any hope of escaping their sins and damnation, and participating in the Life of God now and in eternity.

And water baptism and spiritual baptism are the means God has chosen to bring us into that spiritual reality, via faith in God according to THE WORD preached by the apostles.

[Nitehawk013]

Originally Posted by Baron1710

Water/Spirit preachers ignore the cross, and the "easy believeism" demonstrated there by Jesus. You must Repent, You must be baptized, You must speak in tongues. Salvation is all about what YOU do, and if You haven't done these things there is no room in the kingdom for you. They do not rely on the finished work of the cross, they focus on their steps. One...two...three...now you are saved...well if you continue to dress right...pay your tithes...attend church 4 times a week...obey every nonsense rule the pastor makes up and calls it Biblical...yep it is all about the cross.

And yet you think the "finished work" stuff is better?

Since your salavtion is fromt he finished work of the cross you can go on beating your wife, being a drunk, never get baptized, never be filled with the HG, never gather for any kind of worship service or "church", not give a dime to the work of God, not change your life at all really, cover yourself head to toe in tats and piercings, dress like a streetwalker, and basically do whatever you want, whenever you want because hey...you are saved by faith in the finished work of the cross right? It's never ever about what YOU do or don't do. It's all about the finished work of the cross.

[Nitehawk013]

Originally Posted by Ferd

sorry dude. I havennt brought up any past hurts regarding your buddy dan.

I pointed out quite clearly that he is bitter and has spent the better part of the last few years focusing that bitterness on the UPCI.

that has nothing to do with any "past hurts". i dont even know what that means.

All I have ever known of or about Dan was what I read from him on here and another forum/site. That was enough to know he was bitter, thought himself a know it all, and that if he liked something....generally I was doing well to not like it.

[Baron1710]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I'm not going to rehash this with you, as we have already discussed this at length. Except to say, Jefferson is recorded to have said, ""I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man,..."

A Deist does not believe that God is involved in the lives of His created. For Jefferson to acknowledge the "protection and blessing of the common father and creator of man", proves by his own words that historians cannot claim him to have been a Deist.

You brought out an atheist author to try and prove your point. Therefore, the larger point is that she may have had some historical points, Fudge may have some historical points, but no one is totally correct on everything they claim.

We look to the Word, and as Esaias has posted in another thread - "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment." (1 Cor 1:10)

Hence, we had a division, a split, it's over and everyone needs to move on.

I concur with Ferd, you can have this thread and discussion...

You are delusional. Jefferson's own words establish his position. Read the words of Abigail Adams when she heard he would be President. She all but referred to him as an atheist. This was not an uncommon sentiment among religious people at that time. Just because you plug your ears and shout, "LALALALALALA" doesn't mean it isn't true.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

But, wouldn't Jesus then be saying, "Except a man be born of water and water"?

In John 3:22, right after the account of Nicodemus, it says - "After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized."

Isn't he speaking of both in a purifying sense, yet distinctly separate? Such as in Matthew 3:11?

Since one chapter after his discourse with Nicodemus Jesus again brings up "water" in relation to receiving eternal life, I think it is safe to say that a better translation of John 3:5 would have been, "born of the water, even of the Spirit".

But again, I still hold that baptim is "for the remission of sins".

[Baron1710]

Originally Posted by Nitehawk013

And yet you think the "finished work" stuff is better?

Since your salavtion is fromt he finished work of the cross you can go on beating your wife, being a drunk, never get baptized, never be filled with the HG, never gather for any kind of worship service or "church", not give a dime to the work of God, not change your life at all really, cover yourself head to toe in tats and piercings, dress like a streetwalker, and basically do whatever you want, whenever you want because hey...you are saved by faith in the finished work of the cross right? It's never ever about what YOU do or don't do. It's all about the finished work of the cross.

You certainly have some strange views of the finished work of the cross.

And Yes I absolutely subscribe to the finished work of the cross as far superior to anything else you or anyone else has to offer.

Water/Spirit guys have never been drunkards, wife beaters or child molesters have they? Oh wait...

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Baron1710

I have been gone from the UPC since shortly after the fallout from this sermon so I have no desire to tear down the organization. I do find it sad that so many of us were forced out by he hardliners when we would have been happy to stay but for the attitude that we must all believe the same on every passage and every issue.

Followed by:

Originally Posted by Baron1710

Water/Spirit preachers ignore the cross, and the "easy believeism" demonstrated there by Jesus. You must Repent, You must be baptized, You must speak in tongues. Salvation is all about what YOU do, and if You haven't done these things there is no room in the kingdom for you. They do not rely on the finished work of the cross, they focus on their steps. One...two...three...now you are saved...well if you continue to dress right...pay your tithes...attend church 4 times a week...obey every nonsense rule the pastor makes up and calls it Biblical...yep it is all about the cross.

Now, suppose Baron were there, shortly after the merger. It's all love and peace, roses and rainbows. Such sweet love amongst the brethren!

He and others (I suppose) would be happy to remain in unity, and members of the newly minted UPC, in fellowship with their PAJC brethren... as long as those PAJC brethren don't preach what they believe, of course, and all the while knowing his PAJC brethren don't believe in the cross, ignore the cross, preach works salvation, have added to the gospel, are preaching another gospel, in short, they are a bunch of heretics.

But of course it's those mean ole PAJC 'water/spirit' preachers who ruined such a good thing!

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Baron1710

You certainly have some strange views of the finished work of the cross.

And Yes I absolutely subscribe to the finished work of the cross as far superior to anything else you or anyone else has to offer.

Water/Spirit guys have never been drunkards, wife beaters or child molesters have they? Oh wait...

Explain this 'finished work of the cross' that rules out any need for a response to the gospel as well as any need to actually receive the spirit of Christ.

[Baron1710]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Explain this 'finished work of the cross' that rules out any need for a response to the gospel as well as any need to actually receive the spirit of Christ.

It doesn't rule out a response to the Gospel, or the need for the Spirit. It just rules out making a religious chant over the individual a part of salvation. Nor does it require an emotional experience for one to be filled with the Spirit. And it certainly doesn't require blind submission to a little pope who claims to hold your salvation in his hands based on your obedience to him.

[bishoph]

Originally Posted by Baron1710

It doesn't rule out a response to the Gospel, or the need for the Spirit. It just rules out making a religious chant over the individual a part of salvation. Nor does it require an emotional experience for one to be filled with the Spirit. And it certainly doesn't require blind submission to a little pope who claims to hold your salvation in his hands based on your obedience to him.

Wow it is amazing what we can learn on AFF......invoking the name of Jesus Christ in baptism is now just a religious chant.....and receiving the Holy Ghost is nothing more than an emotional response....or maybe it should be devoid of any emotion...........I guess you learn something new every day......or NOT!