Prominent Memphis Area Pastor Resigns

[tv1a]

My mistake is that you knew the Pareto rule. The Pareto rule is as almost a science. The Pareto rule doesn't mean the leaders pick and choose who is in the twenty percent. The twenty percent isn't hand picked. They are the ones who rise above the ordinary.

I have a problem with people are self anointed and self appointed to stick their noses into church business that doesn't have anything to do with them. You produce the fruit, you may have the right to judge situations that doesn't affect you.

Originally Posted by AreYouReady?

And people like you love to have it so...you hand pick folks to do your bidding and complain about the rest. Nobody gets out of hell free unless Christ says so. He is the ultimate judge.

It is apparent you despise many of the saints. You call them 'members'...webcam prophets...lazy welfare people... and you decide who is worthy to have an opinion or a ministry instead of allowing Christ to be the head of His church.

[AreYouReady?]

Originally Posted by tv1a

My mistake is that you knew the Pareto rule. The Pareto rule is as almost a science. The Pareto rule doesn't mean the leaders pick and choose who is in the twenty percent. The twenty percent isn't hand picked. They are the ones who rise above the ordinary.

I have a problem with people are self anointed and self appointed to stick their noses into church business that doesn't have anything to do with them. You produce the fruit, you may have the right to judge situations that doesn't affect you.

Observing and commenting on a situation is neither self anointed, nor self appointed.

But I and other people do have a right to observe and comment any situation that concerns the church. I do not divide Christ's church into separate anthills. Anything that happens 100, 1000, 5000 miles from me or even around the world that represents Christ, affects me because I am in the same church as they. There is only one church and it is Christ's church. The image that any Holy Ghost filled person creates by the deeds they do affects the entire body of Christ, both here and afar. If a minister who is respected across the country has a moral failure, the entire body of Christ suffers from the pain.

People are weird creatures. They want to deny the effect that another man's moral failure has on the body, but are willing to castigate another class of people (muslims) when their leaders commit sin and attribute that to that entire class of people.


And gee...you get worse and worse in your comparisons. The Pareto rule? It's a rule based on economics, but it can be applied to anything...just as you say. So ok. Let's apply it to your church system. And lets use this website as a guide that gives more of an explanation than you did.

http://management.about.com/cs/gener...reto081202.htm

***In 1906, Italian economist Vilfredo Pareto created a mathematical formula to describe the unequal distribution of wealth in his country, observing that twenty percent of the people owned eighty percent of the wealth. In the late 1940s, Dr. Joseph M. Juran inaccurately attributed the 80/20 Rule to Pareto, calling it Pareto's Principle. While it may be misnamed, Pareto's Principle or Pareto's Law as it is sometimes called, can be a very effective tool to help you manage effectively.***

So...you apply this to your church system. A pastor can use this principle to the people within the four walls of a church building.

Continuing on.....

***Where It Came From

After Pareto made his observation and created his formula, many others observed similar phenomena in their own areas of expertise. Quality Management pioneer, Dr. Joseph Juran, working in the US in the 1930s and 40s recognized a universal principle he called the "vital few and trivial many" and reduced it to writing. In an early work, a lack of precision on Juran's part made it appear that he was applying Pareto's observations about economics to a broader body of work. The name Pareto's Principle stuck, probably because it sounded better than Juran's Principle.
As a result, Dr. Juran's observation of the "vital few and trivial many", the principle that 20 percent of something always are responsible for 80 percent of the results, became known as Pareto's Principle or the 80/20 Rule.

What It Means

The 80/20 Rule means that in anything a few (20 percent) are vital and many(80 percent) are trivial.***

So...are you saying that in your church system, 20 percent are vital to you and the rest (80 % ) are trivial members? Do you discount that 80 percent who are looking for Christ?

Gee...what happened to the church proclaiming to be a beacon of light to Christ if 80% of the people are considered to be trivial IF you apply your Pareto's scientific study to human beings?

I guess it is easy to discount human beings thought of as trailor trash or lazy welfare recipients. Don't mess with em because they will never be anything more than what they are now. (tic)

Yeah...and don't cross over to the other side of the road and be a good samaritan to the man who was robbed and left for dead.


You have your reward here on earth.



***In Pareto's case it meant 20 percent of the people owned 80 percent of the wealth.***

Or are you saying that in your church system 20 percent of the people at the top own 80 percent of the wealth in the church. Does this apply at TB's church for example?



*** In Juran's initial work he identified 20 percent of the defects causing 80 percent of the problems. Project Managers know that 20 percent of the work (the first 10 percent and the last 10 percent) consume 80 percent of your time and resources. You can apply the 80/20 Rule to almost anything, from the science of management to the physical world. [how about the spiritual world?]
You know 20 percent of your stock takes up 80 percent of your warehouse space and that 80 percent of your stock comes from 20 percent of your suppliers. Also 80 percent of your sales will come from 20 percent of your sales staff. 20 percent of your staff will cause 80 percent of your problems, but another 20 percent of your staff will provide 80 percent of your production. It works both ways.***


Now we will get down to the nitty gritty.

***How It Can Help You

The value of the Pareto Principle for a manager is that it reminds you to focus on the 20 percent that matters.***

So...if you apply this principle to your congregation, it is telling me that you only want to focus on the 20 percent of the people and everybody else can be considered to be trivial or trailer trash.

Hmmm....Did Paul teach that people were trivial? Or trailer trash because they were common...poor...simple?

I am going to skip the next portion to get to this. One can read it from the link if so desires.


***There is a management theory floating around at the moment that proposes to interpret Pareto's Principle in such a way as to produce what is called Superstar Management. The theory's supporters claim that since 20 percent of your people produce 80 percent of your results you should focus your limited time on managing only that 20 percent, the superstars. The theory is flawed, as we are discussing here because it overlooks the fact that 80 percent of your time should be spent doing what is really important. Helping the good become better is a better use of your time than helping the great become terrific. Apply the Pareto Principle to all you do, but use it wisely.***


So...didn't Christ say that the shepherd left the 99 to look for the one lost sheep that went astray? Are you saying that since only 20 % of the people in your congregation produce the results pleasing to you, you will let the other 80% go astray?


Aside from all this nonsense, at the end of each of our lives, we will give a true accounting to our Lord and Savior for what we do that matters to HIM. And we will answer for our attitude in how we serve Him. He knows us through and through and while the 'trailer trash' may not be pleasing to another human being, God may see his heart of gold, a humble spirit, or a broken spirit.

In the end, it doesn't matter if we are one of the leadership's 20% who praise our works or if we are the trailer trash that is despised. God is righteous and will judge each one of our works righteously.

We will see if Pareto's Principle is respected by God.

[tv1a]

Christ said to worry about the beam in your own eye before the speck out of someone else's eye. The people the alleged actions affect are the people in Memphis. A hangnail in your finger isn't going to affect your ability to walk. While feet and hands are part of the same body, they work independant of each other. The foot doesn't get bent out of shape if your finger has a hangnail. The foot keeps on doing what its supposed to do without griping about the weakness of the finger.

Again you fail to grasp the of the 80/20 rule. A couple wikipedia comments cut and pasted doesn't give the whole story. Studies shows on a good day, people are lucky to retain 80 percent of what they hear.

Let's see how the 80/20 principle worked in the Bible. Out of the thousands jesus ministered to, He chose 70. Christ narrowed the 70 to 12. Out 500 in the upper room, 120 stayed for the promise. 80/20 rule.

Your job isn't to get people saved. Your job is to mentor them. Jesus gave the mandate to make disciples. Jesus spent more time with His disciples than He did with the multitudes. Jesus didn't beg for disciples. When people didn't accept the invitation to be a disciple, Jesus went on.

You are confusing charity and compassion with discipleship. No one is suggesting to make irrational rushes to judgement with the poor. The role of 80/20 in the church ministry is to teach the 20 percent to be productive and fruitful. In otherwords grow the 20 percent expontentially.

Your conclusions are based on faulty analysis. More examples of the 80/20 rule. Joshua, Caleb an estimated 20 percent used to lead people to the promised land.

Originally Posted by AreYouReady?

Observing and commenting on a situation is neither self anointed, nor self appointed.

But I and other people do have a right to observe and comment any situation that concerns the church. I do not divide Christ's church into separate anthills. Anything that happens 100, 1000, 5000 miles from me or even around the world that represents Christ, affects me because I am in the same church as they. There is only one church and it is Christ's church. The image that any Holy Ghost filled person creates by the deeds they do affects the entire body of Christ, both here and afar. If a minister who is respected across the country has a moral failure, the entire body of Christ suffers from the pain.

People are weird creatures. They want to deny the effect that another man's moral failure has on the body, but are willing to castigate another class of people (muslims) when their leaders commit sin and attribute that to that entire class of people.


And gee...you get worse and worse in your comparisons. The Pareto rule? It's a rule based on economics, but it can be applied to anything...just as you say. So ok. Let's apply it to your church system. And lets use this website as a guide that gives more of an explanation than you did.

http://management.about.com/cs/gener...reto081202.htm

***In 1906, Italian economist Vilfredo Pareto created a mathematical formula to describe the unequal distribution of wealth in his country, observing that twenty percent of the people owned eighty percent of the wealth. In the late 1940s, Dr. Joseph M. Juran inaccurately attributed the 80/20 Rule to Pareto, calling it Pareto's Principle. While it may be misnamed, Pareto's Principle or Pareto's Law as it is sometimes called, can be a very effective tool to help you manage effectively.***

So...you apply this to your church system. A pastor can use this principle to the people within the four walls of a church building.

Continuing on.....

***Where It Came From

After Pareto made his observation and created his formula, many others observed similar phenomena in their own areas of expertise. Quality Management pioneer, Dr. Joseph Juran, working in the US in the 1930s and 40s recognized a universal principle he called the "vital few and trivial many" and reduced it to writing. In an early work, a lack of precision on Juran's part made it appear that he was applying Pareto's observations about economics to a broader body of work. The name Pareto's Principle stuck, probably because it sounded better than Juran's Principle.
As a result, Dr. Juran's observation of the "vital few and trivial many", the principle that 20 percent of something always are responsible for 80 percent of the results, became known as Pareto's Principle or the 80/20 Rule.

What It Means

The 80/20 Rule means that in anything a few (20 percent) are vital and many(80 percent) are trivial.***

So...are you saying that in your church system, 20 percent are vital to you and the rest (80 % ) are trivial members? Do you discount that 80 percent who are looking for Christ?

Gee...what happened to the church proclaiming to be a beacon of light to Christ if 80% of the people are considered to be trivial IF you apply your Pareto's scientific study to human beings?

I guess it is easy to discount human beings thought of as trailor trash or lazy welfare recipients. Don't mess with em because they will never be anything more than what they are now. (tic)

Yeah...and don't cross over to the other side of the road and be a good samaritan to the man who was robbed and left for dead.


You have your reward here on earth.



***In Pareto's case it meant 20 percent of the people owned 80 percent of the wealth.***

Or are you saying that in your church system 20 percent of the people at the top own 80 percent of the wealth in the church. Does this apply at TB's church for example?



*** In Juran's initial work he identified 20 percent of the defects causing 80 percent of the problems. Project Managers know that 20 percent of the work (the first 10 percent and the last 10 percent) consume 80 percent of your time and resources. You can apply the 80/20 Rule to almost anything, from the science of management to the physical world. [how about the spiritual world?]
You know 20 percent of your stock takes up 80 percent of your warehouse space and that 80 percent of your stock comes from 20 percent of your suppliers. Also 80 percent of your sales will come from 20 percent of your sales staff. 20 percent of your staff will cause 80 percent of your problems, but another 20 percent of your staff will provide 80 percent of your production. It works both ways.***


Now we will get down to the nitty gritty.

***How It Can Help You

The value of the Pareto Principle for a manager is that it reminds you to focus on the 20 percent that matters.***

So...if you apply this principle to your congregation, it is telling me that you only want to focus on the 20 percent of the people and everybody else can be considered to be trivial or trailer trash.

Hmmm....Did Paul teach that people were trivial? Or trailer trash because they were common...poor...simple?

I am going to skip the next portion to get to this. One can read it from the link if so desires.


***There is a management theory floating around at the moment that proposes to interpret Pareto's Principle in such a way as to produce what is called Superstar Management. The theory's supporters claim that since 20 percent of your people produce 80 percent of your results you should focus your limited time on managing only that 20 percent, the superstars. The theory is flawed, as we are discussing here because it overlooks the fact that 80 percent of your time should be spent doing what is really important. Helping the good become better is a better use of your time than helping the great become terrific. Apply the Pareto Principle to all you do, but use it wisely.***


So...didn't Christ say that the shepherd left the 99 to look for the one lost sheep that went astray? Are you saying that since only 20 % of the people in your congregation produce the results pleasing to you, you will let the other 80% go astray?


Aside from all this nonsense, at the end of each of our lives, we will give a true accounting to our Lord and Savior for what we do that matters to HIM. And we will answer for our attitude in how we serve Him. He knows us through and through and while the 'trailer trash' may not be pleasing to another human being, God may see his heart of gold, a humble spirit, or a broken spirit.

In the end, it doesn't matter if we are one of the leadership's 20% who praise our works or if we are the trailer trash that is despised. God is righteous and will judge each one of our works righteously.

We will see if Pareto's Principle is respected by God.

[IbelongtoJesus]

Just wondering, but does the attached picture look like the face of a repentant man to you? Cause it sure doesn't to me. This is the profile picture he posted on FB October 24th. Kind of like he is mocking us all laid back in his nice expensive car, paid for with church funds(a new car every 3 yrs). I would have posted it before now, but he keeps getting on FB, updating his picture, and then deactivating his account, this has happened at least 3 times in the last month.

I previously have stated on this forum that he was a repentant man, and was given this information by a source very close to the situation. While he may have tried to seem repentant to them so he might possibly keep some of his public image intact, I do not believe his actions show that he is repentant. He has left TPC with VERY LITTLE money, and a mound of debt accrued by building a daycare on a property that we aren't even "supposed" to be staying at. Properties with taxes unpaid for 5-7 yrs, yet roughly 3 million in annual income for the church?? No new building, virtually non existent building fund, a partially complete 1.3 million dollar daycare(not sure why, because it isn't THAT nice) and very little left in the general fund. YET, he wants the church to pay him a severance package in excess of $250,000?!?! Doesn't seem like he is all too repentant to me.

I withdrawal my previous posts.

[Charnock]

I guess I don't see what's so evil about the picture. Am I missing something?

[AreYouReady?]

Originally Posted by tv1a

Christ said to worry about the beam in your own eye before the speck out of someone else's eye. The people the alleged actions affect are the people in Memphis. A hangnail in your finger isn't going to affect your ability to walk. While feet and hands are part of the same body, they work independant of each other. The foot doesn't get bent out of shape if your finger has a hangnail. The foot keeps on doing what its supposed to do without griping about the weakness of the finger.

Here comes the lecture from you.

Let me tell you something. When people deliberately fail God, it reverberates for hundreds of miles around and does not stay in one little place. Is the entire body of Christ in Memphis? No, but what happens in Memphis affects those in NY, or CA. If you feel it is none of your business then you should stay out of it.

Originally Posted by tv1a

Again you fail to grasp the of the 80/20 rule. A couple wikipedia comments cut and pasted doesn't give the whole story. Studies shows on a good day, people are lucky to retain 80 percent of what they hear.

Let's see how the 80/20 principle worked in the Bible. Out of the thousands jesus ministered to, He chose 70. Christ narrowed the 70 to 12. Out 500 in the upper room, 120 stayed for the promise. 80/20 rule.

I seriously doubt that Christ was out to prove a 80/20 principle when He chose the 70 among the thousands. Christ looked for the right conditions in each of the men's hearts.

If you are going to teach 80/20 principles, then you are into extrabiblical curriculum. We are to teach Christ's principles.

So are you trying to equate yourself with Jesus so you think that you can dismiss the 80% in your church system and describe them with derogatory names?

That is not a Christ-like attitude.
Christ mainly rebuked the leadership of that day. The Pharisees and Saducees earned his rebukes, and rightly so.

Matthew 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.
13 ¶But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
16 Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!
17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?
18 And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty.
19 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?
20 Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon.
21 And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein.
22 And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.
23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. [standards?]
26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

Originally Posted by tv1a

Your job isn't to get people saved. Your job is to mentor them. Jesus gave the mandate to make disciples. Jesus spent more time with His disciples than He did with the multitudes. Jesus didn't beg for disciples. When people didn't accept the invitation to be a disciple, Jesus went on.

And you do not tell me what my job is. Christ does. So don't make the mistake of thinking that you have that authority. You don't.

Let's be real here. The disciples many ministers think that they make do not end up interacting with the multitudes. Let's take a look at the type of people Christ made for disciples.

Peter: He was a fisherman from Capernaum
Andrew: He was Peter's brother and fishing partner; John's gospel says that Andrew was first a disciple of John the Baptist.
James: He was son of Zebedee and a fisherman from Capernaum.
John: He was James's brother and partner in the family fishing business.
Philip: He was from Bethsaida, another town on the coast of the Sea of Galilee.
Bartholomew: Not much is known from the scriptures about him.
Matthew: He's called a toll collector in Matthew's gospel.
Thomas: Went down in history as 'doubting Thomas' because he did not believe Christ was risen.
James: This man, who was the son of Alphaeus, was called in later tradition "James the Less" — not to be confused with James the Great or James brother of Jesus (James was obviously a popular name at the time!).
Simon: He was called "the Cananean" (which means "zealous" or "jealous" in Aramaic)
Thaddeus: There's a bit of controversy when it comes to this 11th disciple. In Mark and Matthew, he's called Thaddeus. Luke, on the other hand, calls this man Jude, son of James.
Judas Iscariot: The betrayer of Christ.

Most of these men were not of great esteem at all. Fishermen, publican, a skeptic. Was Judas among the 'outstanding 20%' ? No. Jesus knew what was in Judas when he picked him to be his disciple. He knew that Judas was going to fulfill God's will for Christ to give his life for many. So that alone blows your theory out of the water.

There is not much difference between the leadership of that day and the leadership of today. Many of them (but not all) put themselves into a special class above the people. They sit on a seat which is on an elevated platform above the people. They demand a portion of their hard earned money. Around here, they have minister dinners, served to them by the saints, in private and only ministers are invited.

Originally Posted by tv1a

You are confusing charity and compassion with discipleship. No one is suggesting to make irrational rushes to judgement with the poor. The role of 80/20 in the church ministry is to teach the 20 percent to be productive and fruitful. In otherwords grow the 20 percent expontentially.

Your conclusions are based on faulty analysis. More examples of the 80/20 rule. Joshua, Caleb an estimated 20 percent used to lead people to the promised land.

The whole 80/20 suggestion you make is faulty. I ended up calling it nonsense in my last post.

Peter said whosoever will...and to those a far off...not 20 percent. That means Jesus calls millions, but who can put a percentage on how many give their lives to God? And who can decide for another what God wants them to do for Him? Only God has that perogative.

No one is suggesting to make irrational rushes to judgement with the poor? You did. You call them trailer trash. It is this mindset that I take exception to. I wonder if you will cozy up to the man who comes into the sanctuary wearing his best Sunday clothing while you would try to hide the "trailer trash" somewhere.

Do not think that you had some sort of epiphany of a scientific observation. In 40 years I have not seen your 80/20 rule actually succeed in action. If a pastor actually managed to turn 20 percent of his congregation into 'disciples', they ended up being in an exclusive clique within the church system and won't get their spiritual hands dirty with the serfs that attend in the congregation.

Sorry. But that has been my experience in the organized church system.

[CC1]

Originally Posted by IbelongtoJesus

Just wondering, but does the attached picture look like the face of a repentant man to you? Cause it sure doesn't to me. This is the profile picture he posted on FB October 24th. Kind of like he is mocking us all laid back in his nice expensive car, paid for with church funds(a new car every 3 yrs). I would have posted it before now, but he keeps getting on FB, updating his picture, and then deactivating his account, this has happened at least 3 times in the last month.

I previously have stated on this forum that he was a repentant man, and was given this information by a source very close to the situation. While he may have tried to seem repentant to them so he might possibly keep some of his public image intact, I do not believe his actions show that he is repentant. He has left TPC with VERY LITTLE money, and a mound of debt accrued by building a daycare on a property that we aren't even "supposed" to be staying at. Properties with taxes unpaid for 5-7 yrs, yet roughly 3 million in annual income for the church?? No new building, virtually non existent building fund, a partially complete 1.3 million dollar daycare(not sure why, because it isn't THAT nice) and very little left in the general fund. YET, he wants the church to pay him a severance package in excess of $250,000?!?! Doesn't seem like he is all too repentant to me.

I withdrawal my previous posts.

Looks like he's got one of his preaching suits in the back so he was probably on his way to a preaching gig.

[IbelongtoJesus]

Originally Posted by Charnock

I guess I don't see what's so evil about the picture. Am I missing something?

I didn't say it was evil. He just doesn't look like a once "prominent and powerful man" who is now "broken" due to pornography, adultery, ect. He just doesn't look very repentant, due to the "smug" look on his face.

[IbelongtoJesus]

Originally Posted by CC1

Looks like he's got one of his preaching suits in the back so he was probably on his way to a preaching gig.

I would sure hope not.

[StillStanding]

Originally Posted by IbelongtoJesus

I didn't say it was evil. He just doesn't look like a once "prominent and powerful man" who is now "broken" due to pornography, adultery, ect. He just doesn't look very repentant, due to the "smug" look on his face.

Are you saying he should only post pictures on his FB page that show him in anguish and wearing sackcloth and ashes? Maybe have the letter "A" sewed to the front of all his suits? How about an "L" put on his forehead with ashes?

I don't believe he should pastor, and that is what has happened. After that, what he does with his life and how he dresses or looks is in God's hands.