Tongues: Spiritual or Learned Behavior?

[KWSS1976]

Learned Behavior I can pull Youtube video to prove... As far as 1 corinthians 14:2 why would someone want to speak mysteries in the Spirit. Again read all scripture just not what supports your teaching I will bold again as on the other thread

14 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.

2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.

4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

5 I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?
7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?

8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?

9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.
10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.

11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.

12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?

17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.

18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:

19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.

21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?

24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:

25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.

26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.

30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.

31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.

32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.

33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.

35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?

37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

40 Let all things be done decently and in order.

[Cindy]

Do you believe everything posted on YouTube is true?

[Dedicated Mind]

Michlow, good to see you again after so long. There are many christians who don't take the bible literally, mainly the mainline churches like episcopal and methodists. You can search "progressive christianity" for more info. I don't have a comment about tongues except to say that my personal experience is authentic to me and no one can convince me otherwise. I remember your discussions in the past about the problem of evil in the world and violence in the OT. I just wanted to share 2 ministries on apologetics that I discovered recently and have learned a lot from. Most ministries aren't very deep in substance and knowledge, but these 2 are very substantive if you have time to check them out. 1 is ravi zacharias: http://www.rzim.org/ and the 2nd is william lane craig: http://www.reasonablefaith.org/ both ministries have 2 podcasts. A daily podcast and a weekly podcast. You can search their media page or subscribe in itunes. zacharias is more philosophical and craig is more scientific. whichever you prefer or both. Wish you the best. God Bless.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Michlow

Quick Background: Most of you remember that I was UPC for approximately 10 years from my early 20's to early 30's before leaving around 2007 or 2008. In that time I became what I think of as an Agnostic Christian. In that I still believe in God, and I still think Jesus is the best image of Him, but after years of obsession over every minute detail of my spirituality, It was a relief to put everything else into a big box labeled "I don't know about any of this, but that's OK, because I don't think it matters".

And leaving the UPC, I was amicably divorced, and eventually remarried to an awesome guy, who just so happens to be an atheist, and after 12 years of bareness (in my 1st marriage), I got a wonderful surprise and now have a 16 month old daughter. And I am happier than I've ever been in my life.

But something I stumbled upon last month upset me quite a bit, and I find myself still wrestling with it. See, in all my post-UPC questioning, I never questioned the existence of God. My belief all hinged on one tiny little thing. I could logically explain away 99% of the things that happened to me in my time as an apostolic, but I never questioned that I had some kind of spiritual encounter that ended with speaking in tongues. Especially as it happened alone, in my bedroom. And all these years, I held onto that....that God must be real because of that experience.

The article that I read doesn't really matter, the gist of it was scientific studies regarding brain usage, (the language centers of the brain weren't used while speaking in tongues), linguistic study (none of the occurrences witnessed were real languages, or linguistically matched an unknown language) and that there was a similarity among speakers to the tongues of the leaders in that same area. The end results were that tongues were most likely learned behavior, and that the brain remembers the sounds and phrases and can repeat them basically subconsciously.

This was disturbing to me because, as I said, my entire belief in God, kind of hinges upon this one "proof". I am curious as to how the other side would respond.

I won't tell you not to post scripture, but I will add the corollary that it most likely won't have the same meaning/impact on me that it does on you.

Hey Mich, what are you trying to say?

[renee819]

Originally Posted by KWSS1976

Learned Behavior I can pull Youtube video to prove... As far as 1 corinthians 14:2 why would someone want to speak mysteries in the Spirit. Again read all scripture just not what supports your teaching I will bold again as on the other thread

14 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.

2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.

4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

5 I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?
7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?

8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?

9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.
10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.

11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.

12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?

17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.

18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:

19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.

21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?

24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:

25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.

26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.

30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.

31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.

32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.

33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.

35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?

37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

40 Let all things be done decently and in order.

And your point is?

RW wrote,
Again read all scripture just not what supports your teaching I will bold again as on the other thread

Well RW, I could have given her tons of scriptures that support what I am teaching. But do you remember, she didn’t want scriptures, so I was trying to keep it low key.

In the scriptures in your Post, Paul was giving them instructions of how to handle the gifts of the Spirit, 1 Cor. 12-14, especially prophesying and speaking in other tongues, because the person that has these gifts can use them, at appropriate times, or they can keep quiet.

[Evang.Benincasa]

http://www.ravishankar.org/

[AreYouReady?]

Originally Posted by Michlow

The article that I read doesn't really matter, the gist of it was scientific studies regarding brain usage, (the language centers of the brain weren't used while speaking in tongues), linguistic study (none of the occurrences witnessed were real languages, or linguistically matched an unknown language) and that there was a similarity among speakers to the tongues of the leaders in that same area. The end results were that tongues were most likely learned behavior, and that the brain remembers the sounds and phrases and can repeat them basically subconsciously.

This was disturbing to me because, as I said, my entire belief in God, kind of hinges upon this one "proof". I am curious as to how the other side would respond.

My son has a Bachelor's Degree in Biochemistry and is well versed in scientific hypothesis, theories and actual scientific evidence or proof.

Many of these studies have not passed the real test of proof and remain in the 'theory' stage. Many of these studies are skewed and are concluded by someone's scientific 'opinion' and are presented to the public as positive proof of whichever topic they are studying. The conclusion they hope to insert into people's mind is how they present their so called studies about anything they can to "disprove" the existence of God.

Look at all the 'man-made' global warming theories being put forth in the media by 'scientists', when there are triple the amount of scientists saying global warming in this context is a hoax. In only a few studies does it come out about the H.A.A.R.P. project that they use for weather/climate experiments. It comes out as conclusive 'evidence' without informing the public about all the facts used based in their studies, such as the existence of H.A.A.R.P. If they would leave things alone, we would have normal weather with warming and cooling cycles that correspond with our sun. By leaving things alone and not doing any H.A.A.R.P. experiments, they can more accurately ascertain climate patterns.

While science has proven certain things through the study of fossils and electrical manipulation experiments, as well as through mathematical hypothesis, it is not 100% foolproof studies. There are many things that they simply cannot explain through their studies.

How can God be scientifically studied when most of us know very little about the being we call God? The best the scientific community can do is to take various things/people/plants/animals and try to disprove that God created these entities.

I've lived my life pondering much of medical science. I wonder at the studies mankind has done on the human body. Such precise electrical conductivity in the body as well as osmosis and perfect cooperation within the body itself for cells and tissues to communicate with each other.

Take the small example of arterial blood gases for instance. We can draw out a small sample of arterial blood (as opposed to venous blood) to measure how much oxygen, carbon dioxide, HCO3 (bicarbonate or a 'buffer' the kidneys in the body produces for the fluid pH balance) and base ex that determines the pH of the blood. A normal pH for a healthy person is within the range of 7.35-7.45. Any variance in these variables either high or low indicates a disease process going on within the body from one or more organs. Now, I find it impossible that from this one test alone, that a human body could just be so finely tuned and in concert with the entire organism to happen by just "evolving" into this. I've come to the conclusion from the hundreds of other processes of the human body I've learned that there has to be a supreme being that knew all of these processes thousands of years ago to fitly frame the human body for all functions to work together so precisely.

Look at the flower. How can just one species of a flower 'just evolve' into what it is and reproduce itself and only itself. Science has now cracked the genetic codes in many of our food sources and learned to manipulate this process and produce genetically modified organisms that are not safe for the human body to assimilate because it does not recognize the amino acid sequences.

I quit attending UPC churches (except occasionally) for the last 20 years.
I've found myself in some occasions where my situation was prolonged and impossible to overcome...on my own. It was after all I could do to resolve the issue that I turned to God using effective and fervent prayer full of faith that God quickly, sometimes within just a few days resolve my situation. This defies logic that my situation resolved itself when I was in a literal hell trying to resolve it on my own for a year and nothing happened. But as soon as I prayed fervently to God and believing, knowing that I could not do anything about the situation on my own, it was resolved through a rapidly changing process in just a few days.

Sometimes we just have to 'prove' God in different ways than to have His existence hinge on one thing that happened to us from way back.

Sometimes we just have to believe that God is, always has been and always will be ... God.

As for the 'rulebook'. History has shown that men have used and manipulated the Bible to obtain and retain power for so many centuries/milleniums, that it is easy to wonder about God's very existence because of misuse and the 'rule makers using the book' not apply those rules to themselves.

I do not let another human being's actions determine the existence of God, no matter how much they want to shout at me, curse me, or prophecy their thoughts against me because I know who my real advocate to the Father is.

[renee819]

RW wrote,

Learned Behavior I can pull Youtube video to prove... As far as 1 corinthians 14:2 why would someone want to speak mysteries in the Spirit

. .

How can you prove the things of God on Utube?

To answer your question, I’ll ask another one, Why pray?

Praying in tongues should mostly be done at home.
Sometimes we don’t know how we should pray, and the Holy Ghost thru the gift of unknown tongues prays thru us. That is what Rom 8 is telling us.

Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

That is what Paul is also teaching them in 1 Cor 12-14

1 Corinthians 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?
17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.
18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

Paul said that he spoke in tongues more than them all, but “in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.”

So where did Paul speak in tongues? Along the road, as he was traveling, anytime that he was alone, in the middle of the night. Why would he do that?

1 Corinthians 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

That word “edifieth” means to build up. And we are talking about spiritual things here, it builds a person up in the Spirit. We all need that. Jude says the same.

Jude 1:20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

Unknown tongues, in church, is different.
Talking in unknown tongues, is a mystery in itself. It comes from God and NO MAN understands the language.

However, God has taken care of that. One of the Gifts is the gift of interpretation. (Not translation word for word) but God gives the one with the gift of interpretation, an interpretation of what the message is about, that the one has just brought forth in tongues.
When this happens, then it is prophecy.

1 Corinthians 14:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.
31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets
39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues

[renee819]

Originally Posted by AreYouReady?

My son has a Bachelor's Degree in Biochemistry and is well versed in scientific hypothesis, theories and actual scientific evidence or proof.

Many of these studies have not passed the real test of proof and remain in the 'theory' stage. Many of these studies are skewed and are concluded by someone's scientific 'opinion' and are presented to the public as positive proof of whichever topic they are studying. The conclusion they hope to insert into people's mind is how they present their so called studies about anything they can to "disprove" the existence of God.

Look at all the 'man-made' global warming theories being put forth in the media by 'scientists', when there are triple the amount of scientists saying global warming in this context is a hoax. In only a few studies does it come out about the H.A.A.R.P. project that they use for weather/climate experiments. It comes out as conclusive 'evidence' without informing the public about all the facts used based in their studies, such as the existence of H.A.A.R.P. If they would leave things alone, we would have normal weather with warming and cooling cycles that correspond with our sun. By leaving things alone and not doing any H.A.A.R.P. experiments, they can more accurately ascertain climate patterns.

While science has proven certain things through the study of fossils and electrical manipulation experiments, as well as through mathematical hypothesis, it is not 100% foolproof studies. There are many things that they simply cannot explain through their studies.

How can God be scientifically studied when most of us know very little about the being we call God? The best the scientific community can do is to take various things/people/plants/animals and try to disprove that God created these entities.

I've lived my life pondering much of medical science. I wonder at the studies mankind has done on the human body. Such precise electrical conductivity in the body as well as osmosis and perfect cooperation within the body itself for cells and tissues to communicate with each other.

Take the small example of arterial blood gases for instance. We can draw out a small sample of arterial blood (as opposed to venous blood) to measure how much oxygen, carbon dioxide, HCO3 (bicarbonate or a 'buffer' the kidneys in the body produces for the fluid pH balance) and base ex that determines the pH of the blood. A normal pH for a healthy person is within the range of 7.35-7.45. Any variance in these variables either high or low indicates a disease process going on within the body from one or more organs. Now, I find it impossible that from this one test alone, that a human body could just be so finely tuned and in concert with the entire organism to happen by just "evolving" into this. I've come to the conclusion from the hundreds of other processes of the human body I've learned that there has to be a supreme being that knew all of these processes thousands of years ago to fitly frame the human body for all functions to work together so precisely.

Look at the flower. How can just one species of a flower 'just evolve' into what it is and reproduce itself and only itself. Science has now cracked the genetic codes in many of our food sources and learned to manipulate this process and produce genetically modified organisms that are not safe for the human body to assimilate because it does not recognize the amino acid sequences.

I quit attending UPC churches (except occasionally) for the last 20 years.
I've found myself in some occasions where my situation was prolonged and impossible to overcome...on my own. It was after all I could do to resolve the issue that I turned to God using effective and fervent prayer full of faith that God quickly, sometimes within just a few days resolve my situation. This defies logic that my situation resolved itself when I was in a literal hell trying to resolve it on my own for a year and nothing happened. But as soon as I prayed fervently to God and believing, knowing that I could not do anything about the situation on my own, it was resolved through a rapidly changing process in just a few days.

Sometimes we just have to 'prove' God in different ways than to have His existence hinge on one thing that happened to us from way back.

Sometimes we just have to believe that God is, always has been and always will be ... God.

As for the 'rulebook'. History has shown that men have used and manipulated the Bible to obtain and retain power for so many centuries/milleniums, that it is easy to wonder about God's very existence because of misuse and the 'rule makers using the book' not apply those rules to themselves.

I do not let another human being's actions determine the existence of God, no matter how much they want to shout at me, curse me, or prophecy their thoughts against me because I know who my real advocate to the Father is.

AreYou Ready----GREAT POST.------

[trialedbyfire]

To those who speak in tongues it is spiritual. To those who don't they will assume it is learned behavior.

Either way, if you have not spoken in tongues you do not have the Gift of the Holy Ghost. If you do not have the Holy Ghost you are lost. So if you believe it's spiritual you need the Holy Ghost. If you don't believe it's spiritual, you still need the Holy Ghost.