"Real" Holy Ghost?

[Sam]

I have a DVD which I purchased from the Pentecostal Publishing House a while back. It contains the Pentecostal Herald from December, 1945 (first issue, but with a few pages missing) through December of 2004. They are pdf (portable document format) files. It's been interesting looking at some of those old issues. I used to get the Herald at Church. They were available at both the UPC and ALJC churches where I went.

This is not anything new but goes back quite a few years to the time when folks from different denominations were receiving an experience that they called "the Holy Ghost Baptism" or "the release of the Spirit" or "receiving their prayer language" or "the Baptism in the Holy Spirit." I remember looking down my self-righteous nose at these reports and thinking, "This can't be genuine because they didn't come to us to receive this experience." I guess at that time I thought we had an exclusive franchise on the Spirit of God. Later, my attitude changed.

This article is just presented for information and maybe for some discussion.

This is from page 20 of the January 1962 Pentecostal Herald.

EPISCOPALIANS RECEIVE THE HOLY GHOST

God has promised that in the last days He would pour out of His Spirit upon all flesh. Stirring reports are coming in to us of how large numbers in nominal churches are receiving the baptism of the Holy Ghost.

Recently an Episcopalian minster named Bennet, pastor of St. Mark's Church of the Holy Spirit in Van Nuys, California, was scheduled to speak at a convention in Moody Memorial Church. As he could not be present, Mrs. Gene Stone, a member of his church, addressed the convention. This young woman is not a minister. In a pleasing manner, interjecting praises to the Lord, she told of how the Lord was doing a new thing in our day. (It is new to them, of course.)

Mrs. Stone told of an Anglican priest in Canada receiving the Holy Ghost. (Episcopalians in Canada are called Anglicans.) She also stated that 1300 Episcopalian priests and lay people in the Los Angeles area had received the Holy Ghost, speaking in other tongues. The experience is changing their lives. They have no time now for dances an cocktail parties. They spend their lives witnessing for the Lord.

Mrs. Stone was invited to lunch with seven Episcopalians. While sitting at the table, a message was given in tongues, and interpreted. The waitress, a Baptist, trembling with coffee cups in her hand said, "That's what I want: I've always wanted something more." She received the Holy Ghost right there in the restaurant.

Later at a motel the manager, a woman, knocked at Mrs. Stone's door, saying, "May I speak with you?" But she seemed speechless. Soon Mrs. Stone asked, "Did you want to speak about the Holy Ghost?" The woman answered, "Yes." Soon she was speaking with other tongues.

All this proves that we indeed are living in the last days.

[Sam]

This is from a booklet called "The Charismatic Movement, Renewal or Confusion?" which I received from Pastor James Lee Beall quite a while ago ( in the 1960's or maybe in the early 1970's). He was pastor of Bethesda Missionary Temple in Detroit, MI. This church was considered "Latter Rain," "Oneness Pentecostal," or "Apostolic Pentecostal" depending on your viewpoint. In this portion he describes his attitude toward "Charismatics," and tells of being invited to participate in one of their meetings.

Jim Ellis

---------------
Religious Superiority

It is relatively simple to sit back and criticize every and all religious groups. If you want something to offend you, it will be easily found.

When the Lord God first began to pour the Holy Spirit upon segments of the organized church --the Catholics, the Baptists, the Episcopalians, etc., I sat back to criticize. Believe me, I found plenty that I did not consider right or proper.

How superior I felt as I sat in my detached ivory tower pointing out the wrongs committed by others! There is no feeling quite like that which comes with religious superiority. It is like the eye saying to the hand, "I have no need of you."

...It is my personal opinion that the charismatic renewal has brought segments of the religious world to needed areas of maturity. For the first time in years and years, men and women of different persuasions are able to sit down and talk without cutting one another to pieces. We have ceased being afraid of one another.

My First Charismatic Conference.

Some years back I was invited to one of the major U.S. cities to take part in a city-wide charismatic conference. This was the first for me and I wasn't sure that I wanted to go.

I gave the matter some thought and prayer. Inwardly I knew it was the right step for me. I accepted the invitations and left for the meetings.

What I saw in the initial services made me a little uneasy. Hundreds of people were in attendance with clergymen of all backgrounds.

During the course of this dinner-meeting,the religious community was invited to stand and identify themselves. To my surprise, the Roman Catholics --priests and nuns-- were in the majority.

I could not believe they were really interested in knowing about the baptism in the Holy Spirit and what God was doing spiritually all over the world. I had come to believe that Roman Catholics and Episcopalians were such dyed-in-the-wool sacramentalists that personal spiritual experiences were of little or no interest to them. In that meeting, I began to get the sneaky hunch that I might have been wrong.

The day after the initial dinner-meeting we conducted our services in one of the local church buildings. My responsibility was to speak morning and evening.

Following my teaching on the baptism in the Holy Spirit that evening I invited those who were interested to stand and express their interest in this way. About half of that audience responded.

The church sanctuary was completely filled so I asked those seated in the right front section to move toward the rear if they were not interested in further instruction and prayer for the baptism in the Holy Spirit. Finally, we got everyone settled again.

There in the first rows were Roman Catholic priests and nuns, along with other ministers and workers from various churches. I didn't know exactly what I ought to do.

The reason for my quandry was that I knew the Lord had no intention of filling these people with the Holy Spirit. They belonged to the wrong churches and I was not even sure of their salvation. There was no other step to be taken except that of instruction. This I did with the intention of eventually leading them to prayer.

In my prayer I led these seekers to repeat after me. My prayer would be a request for the forgiveness of sins and the confession that we were fully aware that there was one mediator between God and man, the Lord Jesus Christ. I was going to make Protestants out of all these Catholics if I possibly could. After all, this was the only way they could receive something from the Lord.

Mixed Reactions

While I was praying with my eyes closed, my prayer was interrupted. Someone was singing and praising God in another language. In a few minutes, others joined in.

When I opened my eyes to see who it was who was being filled with the Holy Spirit, i was amazed to find the majority of them were obviously Roman Catholics. My reactions were mixed. I was happy for them, while at the same time puzzled. How could this happen? What did it all mean?

The next day the entire scene broke in on me again. All I could say was, "God did it!" I did not lay my hands on them. No one gave them words to say nor did we initiate anything.

God evidently did not care if they were protestants or Catholics and He did not keep the Spirit from them because they wore clerical clothes. The Lord God looked down into the hearts and saw the hunger there. Not a hunger for things, or experiences, or gifts --just a deep and singular hunger and thirst for Him. He meets the hungry and satisfies their mouth with good things. Make no mistake about this.

[Sam]

A few years ago I read “Nine O’clock In The Morning” by Dennis J. Bennett, copyright 1970.

Dennis J. Bennett (born 10/28/17, died 11/1/91) was an Episcopal clergyman prominently identified with the Charismatic Renewal from the beginning. He was pastor of the St. Mark Episcopal Church in Van Nuys, CA., a congregation of about 2600, and in 1959 and early 1960, he and several others in the church were baptized in the Holy Spirit. The group of Spirit-filled believers in the congregation grew and and there was some division among church members over the experience. On April 3, 1960, Pastor Bennett announced his experience in a sermon to the congregation and later resigned his position as pastor. He then moved to St. Luke’s in Seattle and from there traveled nationally and internationally teaching on and ministering the Holy Spirit. At the time the book was written he estimated that between 8 and 10 thousand people had received the Holy Ghost Baptism through meetings in the Seattle area. The April 3, 1960 date is usually considered the beginning of the Charismatic Renewal so next month will be a 50 year anniversary.

The book starts out on his day off when a fellow Episcopal priest named Frank visited him and expressed concern about a couple of members in his (Frank’s) church. When Father Bennett asked him why he is concerned about his members, the priest says that, although they had been members of the church when he first came as pastor, they recently started coming to church on a regular basis, and seemed to be "enjoying" their religion. When asked, they explained that the reason for the big change in them is that they had recently been baptized in the Holy Spirit and had spoken with tongues.

Well, Father Bennett becomes intrigued and starts visiting with them and then attending some prayer meetings, talking to people, and investigating by reading the Bible. After about three months of cautiously looking on, he is told that if he wants to be baptized in the Spirit, all he has to do is ask for the experience. On a Saturday afternoon, Father Bennett and another priest from his diocese (not Frank) were in the couple’s home and it happened.

Here’s how the book describes the event on pages 20 and 21.

John came across the room and laid his hands first on my head, and then on my friend’s. He began to pray, very quietly, and I recognized the same thing as when Bud had prayed with me a few days before: he was speaking a language that I did not understand, and speaking it very fluently. He wasn’t a bit “worked up” about it either. Then he prayed in English for Jesus to baptize me in the Holy Spirit.

I began to pray, as he told me, and I prayed very quietly, too. I was not about to get even a little bit excited! I was simply following instructions. I suppose I must have prayed out loud for about twenty minutes --at least it seemed to be a log time-- and was just about to give up when a very strange thing happened. My tongue tripped, just as it might when you are trying to recite a tongue twister, and I began to speak in a new language!

Right away I recognized several things: first, it wasn’t some kind of psychological trick or compulsion. There was nothing compulsive about it. I was allowing these new words to come to my lips and was speaking them out of my own volition, without in any way being forced to do it. I wasn’t “carried away” in any sense of the word, but was fully in possession of my wits and my willpower. I spoke the new language because it was interesting to speak a language I had never learned, even though I didn’t know what I was saying. I had taken quite a while to learn a small amount of German and French, but here was a language “for free”! Secondly, it was a real language, not some kind of “baby-talk.” It had grammar and syntax: it had inflection and expression --and it was rather beautiful! I went on allowing these new words to come to my lips for about five minutes, then said to my friends: “Well, that must be what you mean by ‘speaking in tongues’ --but what is it all about? I don’t feel anything?”

They said joyfully, “Praise the Lord!”

This seemed a bit irrelevant and was a little strong for my constitution. It bordered on the fanatical for such a thing to be said by Episcopalians on a fine Saturday afternoon sitting right in the front room of their own home.

[Sam]

Questions:
1. Did these folks receive the "real" Holy Ghost or something false?
2. If you believe he Holy Ghost Baptism is the birth of the Spirit, are these folks born of the Spirit?
3. If these folks do not get water baptized properly, will they take the Holy Ghost to hell with them?

[houston]

He didn't feel anything.

[trialedbyfire]

Originally Posted by Sam

Questions:
1. Did these folks receive the "real" Holy Ghost or something false?
2. If you believe he Holy Ghost Baptism is the birth of the Spirit, are these folks born of the Spirit?
3. If these folks do not get water baptized properly, will they take the Holy Ghost to hell with them?

1. Yes.
2. Yes.
3. No.

I've had to explain this before. There are people who have been baptized in Jesus Name and filled with the Holy Ghost just like myself and all other Apostolics who unfortunetly will end up in Hell because they did not "walk in the spirit..." that they received and "the newness of life" they received after baptism.

I guess you can call them "backslidders" but really they aren't always backslidders, some just were shown the way by the Holy Ghost, as the spirit of God will lead us into all truth John 16:13, but made a conscious decision not to follow the path given to full salvation. The same can be said about those who have received the Holy Ghost but have not been baptized in Jesus Name.

I know many people who have spoken in tongues and have not been baptized in Jesus Name. Would I dare tell them they don't have the Holy Ghost because they aren't Apostolic? No. That's utterly foolish and ignorant. The Holy Ghost is not "for" Apostolics. God will and can fill anyone who desires to be filled (Luke 11:13). I recieved the Holy Ghost in a charismatic/full gospel church. People in the Apostolic movement are still shocked when they find that out. I'm not any less "strong on the doctrine" because I'll fellowship outside of the Apostolic church either. I am convinved that unless you: repent of your sins, are baptized in Jesus Name, Filled With the Holy Ghost, and Living a Holy and Sanctified Life before God you will not see Jesus in peace.

However I understand the charismatic movement, the trinitarian pentecostal movement in the context of Joel's prophecy and what exactly God is trying to do in these last days. I have a trinitarian cousin that was led by the Holy Ghost to be baptized in Jesus Name about a year after she received the Holy Ghost her entire side of the family is Apostolic now. I know God deals with the trinitarians the same way he deals with us. I pray that they complete their salvation just like I pray for those saints who are baptized and Holy Ghost filled and myself that we continue to walk in the spirit of God. Yes, I've worshipped in charismatic circles. Yes, I've led prayer meetings with trinitarians, yes I've seen baptists and methodists speak in tongues. I rejoiced when they spoke in tongues the same way I rejoiced when folks who've been baptized in Jesus Name are filled. The way I see it, it's one step closer to Heaven on a journey we're all taking.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Sam

This is from a booklet called "The Charismatic Movement, Renewal or Confusion?" which I received from Pastor James Lee Beall quite a while ago ( in the 1960's or maybe in the early 1970's). He was pastor of Bethesda Missionary Temple in Detroit, MI. This church was considered "Latter Rain," "Oneness Pentecostal," or "Apostolic Pentecostal" depending on your viewpoint. In this portion he describes his attitude toward "Charismatics," and tells of being invited to participate in one of their meetings.

Jim Ellis

---------------
Religious Superiority

It is relatively simple to sit back and criticize every and all religious groups. If you want something to offend you, it will be easily found.

When the Lord God first began to pour the Holy Spirit upon segments of the organized church --the Catholics, the Baptists, the Episcopalians, etc., I sat back to criticize. Believe me, I found plenty that I did not consider right or proper.

How superior I felt as I sat in my detached ivory tower pointing out the wrongs committed by others! There is no feeling quite like that which comes with religious superiority. It is like the eye saying to the hand, "I have no need of you."

...It is my personal opinion that the charismatic renewal has brought segments of the religious world to needed areas of maturity. For the first time in years and years, men and women of different persuasions are able to sit down and talk without cutting one another to pieces. We have ceased being afraid of one another.

My First Charismatic Conference.

Some years back I was invited to one of the major U.S. cities to take part in a city-wide charismatic conference. This was the first for me and I wasn't sure that I wanted to go.

I gave the matter some thought and prayer. Inwardly I knew it was the right step for me. I accepted the invitations and left for the meetings.

What I saw in the initial services made me a little uneasy. Hundreds of people were in attendance with clergymen of all backgrounds.

During the course of this dinner-meeting,the religious community was invited to stand and identify themselves. To my surprise, the Roman Catholics --priests and nuns-- were in the majority.

I could not believe they were really interested in knowing about the baptism in the Holy Spirit and what God was doing spiritually all over the world. I had come to believe that Roman Catholics and Episcopalians were such dyed-in-the-wool sacramentalists that personal spiritual experiences were of little or no interest to them. In that meeting, I began to get the sneaky hunch that I might have been wrong.

The day after the initial dinner-meeting we conducted our services in one of the local church buildings. My responsibility was to speak morning and evening.

Following my teaching on the baptism in the Holy Spirit that evening I invited those who were interested to stand and express their interest in this way. About half of that audience responded.

The church sanctuary was completely filled so I asked those seated in the right front section to move toward the rear if they were not interested in further instruction and prayer for the baptism in the Holy Spirit. Finally, we got everyone settled again.

There in the first rows were Roman Catholic priests and nuns, along with other ministers and workers from various churches. I didn't know exactly what I ought to do.

The reason for my quandry was that I knew the Lord had no intention of filling these people with the Holy Spirit. They belonged to the wrong churches and I was not even sure of their salvation. There was no other step to be taken except that of instruction. This I did with the intention of eventually leading them to prayer.

In my prayer I led these seekers to repeat after me. My prayer would be a request for the forgiveness of sins and the confession that we were fully aware that there was one mediator between God and man, the Lord Jesus Christ. I was going to make Protestants out of all these Catholics if I possibly could. After all, this was the only way they could receive something from the Lord.

Mixed Reactions

While I was praying with my eyes closed, my prayer was interrupted. Someone was singing and praising God in another language. In a few minutes, others joined in.

When I opened my eyes to see who it was who was being filled with the Holy Spirit, i was amazed to find the majority of them were obviously Roman Catholics. My reactions were mixed. I was happy for them, while at the same time puzzled. How could this happen? What did it all mean?

The next day the entire scene broke in on me again. All I could say was, "God did it!" I did not lay my hands on them. No one gave them words to say nor did we initiate anything.

God evidently did not care if they were protestants or Catholics and He did not keep the Spirit from them because they wore clerical clothes. The Lord God looked down into the hearts and saw the hunger there. Not a hunger for things, or experiences, or gifts --just a deep and singular hunger and thirst for Him. He meets the hungry and satisfies their mouth with good things. Make no mistake about this.

I visited James Lee Bealls Church in the 70's. He was a 3 step Trinitarian Charismatic and baptized in Jesus name.

[Sam]

This is from pages 31 - 33 of “ God Hath Wrought, The Complete Works of O.F. Fauss,” copyright 1985 by Word Aflame Press. Bro. Fauss was one of the old pioneers of the Apostolic Faith and held several offices in OP organizations. He died in 1980.

My Personal Baptism of the Holy Ghost

Sometime after that first prayer meeting we moved out into the country, about fourteen miles from Ganado. There were three or four families in that area who had accepted the experience of Pentecost. Each Sunday we would meet at one of our homes and have what we called “an all-day meeting.” The services would begin about ten o’clock in the morning and sometimes last as late as midnight.

We had no preacher to lead us or keep us in the middle the road, but we were all just as hungry as could be for more of the Lord. Jesus was good to us and seemed to give us always the wisdom to conduct the services in the proper manner. Every now and then one
in our company would receive the Holy Ghost, and that would encourage the rest of us to press on.

A few weeks after we moved to the country, I was hired to work in a hay field a few miles from home. While I was working there, my mother and father, along with some others, came over for a prayer meeting. The power of God fell in a wonderful way that night, and it seemed my soul was blessed to overflowing. Some of the folks there that night told me I had received the baptism of the Holy Ghost, but I was not satisfied. I felt in my heart that I had been blessed of God, yet I wanted a more real evidence of the baptism of the Spirit.

A few days passed, and I continually prayed and asked God please to give me something that would satisfy my soul and longing heart. I would have a “good time” each day, just worshiping the Lord and praying as I ran the mowing machine. If my team of horses, “Coally and Possum,” could have understood English, I’m sure they would have thought they had one crazy driver— always talking to himself and praying. Oh, those wonderful days when I was being taught by the Spirit of God to yield to Him.

One September morning in 1911, the sun arose in a most beautiful way. I took my team of horses and headed for the back side of the field. As I made the rounds with the mower, it seemed that I was more hungry than ever for the baptism of the Holy Ghost. I thought my heart would burst. I couldn’t get the horses to follow my commands, and it seemed the devil was in everything around me. Later I realized that the enemy of my soul was making one last, desperate fight to keep me from receiving the Holy Ghost. I even drove into a bee’s nest, and you can guess the rest.

About the middle of the afternoon, as I was meditating upon what the baptism of the Holy Ghost really was, I felt the strangest feeling come all over me. It seemed like I had come into contact with some kind of current. That blessed something began to fill me through and through. I almost lost control of what I was saying, and the Spirit took possession of my whole being. At this moment, a knowledge of English would have been of no benefit to the horses as I quit speaking in English and spoke in other tongues as the Spirit gave utterance. I sang and I shouted. I felt like running, but I was afraid that if I ran, that “something” would leave me. The louder I would shout, the more good it seemed to do my soul.

For six months I had prayed for this to happen. I had prayed everywhere: up in the barn, down back of the field, out in the woods, and down in the old pump house. In other words, I had prayed in every place and in every position I could think of, hoping that somehow I could get in some certain position to receive the baptism of the Spirit. But when I finally reached the position of knowing that I could do nothing to help God out and fell completely with my whole soul into His hands and was willing to let Him have His way with me, He did not fail me.

I believe everything in the hay field, as well as the surrounding country, must have known that something had happened to me that day. When I came into camp that evening, the man I was working for, who had the Holy Ghost, asked me what all the noise was that afternoon. I told him what had taken place. I was so filled with joy, but I was afraid that it would leave me. But, praise God, the feeling is still with me after almost sixty-five years.

Of course, the devil tried to make me doubt what I had received. Before I received the Holy Ghost, Satan tried to make me think it was not for me, but once I got it, he tried to make me believe that I had not really received it. However, the experience of that day was powerful enough to make me know that the devil was a liar. Jesus had come into my life to abide.

[acerrak]

Originally Posted by Sam

Questions:
1. Did these folks receive the "real" Holy Ghost or something false?
2. If you believe he Holy Ghost Baptism is the birth of the Spirit, are these folks born of the Spirit?
3. If these folks do not get water baptized properly, will they take the Holy Ghost to hell with them?

yes
yes
No

unfortunatly the only thing that seperates people is other people.
we give other people labels and when they do not fixt into our theology they are condemed

Jeff arnold "the man that supposedly died on stage" in a general conference preached about a women. This was something he new or witnessed. It was very personal and emotional for him when he shared this testamony to a room full of upci and apostolic preachers

this women had a son who was born with issues in his legs, instead of his feet growing normal they grew pointing in tword each other. It was a disability for him.

she never spoke in tongues, never was baptized in Jesus name, yet God her the prayer for her shild and healed him.

God doesnt listen to sinners according to the blind man in the book of John. then he said you all can condem me to hell now... this addressed to the audience in attendance.

I think the error that most apostolics have is this

by trialedbyfire
I pray that they complete their salvation

If God has Given them the Holy Spirit, they have recieved the promise. They are either sealed with the promise or they are not. They are given the Spirit of adoption or they are not.

To say that there salvation isn't complete is like telling God well Lord i know you said what ever you make clean to not call it unclean, but there have not completed the three step method.. so technically there slalvation isnt finished.

That is the error as looking on a literal name when being baptized versus recognizing that its in the authority.

While in many eyes great that you recieved that, you must now have some one vocalize a name over you at a specific time during water baptism to enter the kingdom, even tho the kingdom is literally inside you now, cause of the Spirit........

It is clear anyone who has the Spirit of Christ is His.

and Living a Holy and Sanctified Life before God you will not see Jesus in peace.

what makes you Holy your actions or is it the Spirit that Makes you Holy? Does your ability to try and set your self apart make you Holy or is it God who has set you apart.

Is sanctification a work of man or is it the work of the Spirit in you.

Do you believe that you keep your self saved after being saved even though you didnt merit salvation to begin with?

[Aquila]

I think we should be careful about judgment on this one. If God is filling people with the Holy Ghost, obviously He knows what He's doing. This doesn't affirm everything they teach, but it does affirm the love of God and His desire to save, often in spite of ourselves. Jesus will correct misunderstandings in eternity.