Can someone shed some light on....

[Coady]

What do you think was meant by the following

Scriptures? (Thanks in advance)

Matt. 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now

the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent

take it by force.

similarly,

Luke 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that

time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth

into it.

[bbyrd009]

I was taught that this was an indictment of RCC,
but see it now in more general terms, meaning
that satan will insinuate himself via "the powerful"
into anything that starts out "good."

Most pointedly in modern times the
Apostolic organization, now defunct I guess?
I forget the acronym for it.

The occupy movement might be another reflection.

[bbyrd009]

Hmm, the commentaries provide another interesting reflection tho:
The kingdom of heaven suffereth violence - The tax-gatherers and heathens, whom the scribes and Pharisees think have no right to the kingdom of the Messiah, filled with holy zeal and earnestness, seize at once on the proffered mercy of the Gospel, and so take the kingdom as by force from those learned doctors who claimed for themselves the chiefest places in that kingdom. Christ himself said, The tax-gatherers and harlots go before you into the kingdom of God. See the parallel place, Luke 7:28-30. He that will take, get possession of the kingdom of righteousness, peace, and spiritual joy, must be in earnest: all hell will oppose him in every step he takes; and if a man be not absolutely determined to give up his sins and evil companions, and have his soul saved at all hazards, and at every expense, he will surely perish everlastingly. This requires a violent earnestness.

(Clark's, I believe; I just grabbed one)

[Coady]

The RCC (merger of fallen away with the political system) came

about long after John the Baptist, but your second post

has got me thinking.

[bbyrd009]

Ya, the commentary was new for me-
-I always heard that Scripture translated
"Anything human that starts out inspired ends up corrupted
(by the powerful)."

[PastorBobHall]

Rom.14:17 defines for me, the 'kingdom', as the New Testament church (the kingdom of God is...In the Holy Ghost; Jesus said it's within you.)

I believe that these verses refer to the true church & it will suffer violently because we have chosen to live like & for Jesus. (and it surely has) At the same time, in order to be born again into the family of God, people will find it takes a violent effort on our part to overcome & get the victory over the world, flesh & the devil, praying through to the Holy Ghost.

John Baptist was the last Old Testament prophet & Jesus was introducing these points because the old way was through a nation (Israel) & He describes the 'kingdom' purposefully leaving Israel, as a nation, out.

I hope I wasn't too confusing. But this is my belief about these verses.

God Bless

[shag]

"The violent" ones in Matt. 11:12 were believers ("every man" in Lk. 16:16). Those who believed the Gospel of the Kingdom were "forcing their way into" and "seizing" the Kingdom of Heaven. The "violence" was not bloodshed or persecution. It was the storming of believers into the Kingdom against the will of the scribes and Pharisees, who had shut its door and had taken away its key (Matt. 22:43, Matt. 23:13, Lk. 11:52).